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You know who you are- Stop giving cyclists a bad name

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You know who you are- Stop giving cyclists a bad name

Old 11-02-11, 01:01 PM
  #76  
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Originally Posted by GriddleCakes View Post
The manner in which you filter might never inconvenience anyone, might even facilitate traffic flow, and would still be considered rude by the people that you pass; it's a perception thing. Same as how some people get pissed at late mergers...but is perceived as jumping the line over those who merged as soon as they saw the "lane ends, move left/right" signage.
The problem with late mergers is that if everyone merges gradually when they see the lane is going to end, traffic can generally continue to flow. Then you get a few jackasses who will drive right up until the point that the lane runs out, have to slow down, then try to jump into the line causing the people behind them to have to hit the brakes, bringing the whole line to a halt. It's not a matter of rudeness for passing people. It's a matter of being a jackass who is more concerned with passing everyone else and getting themselves ahead of everyone they can and then destroying the flow of traffic by jumping in at a time when it doesn't flow nicely. Merge while traffic is still moving and people won't end up having to brake hard and cause traffic to back up.

Saying that since traffic flows better in general when people utilize all space, people should merge at the last second causing others to hit the brakes and hold up traffic, makes not much more sense than saying that we should also get rid of stop signs so that we can utilize the space in the intersection more. Sure, the space in the intersection is going to waste a lot of the time, but it still causes traffic to flow better if we are considerate and take turns and keep the flow rather than all trying to cram through at the last second.
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Old 11-02-11, 01:09 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by fastbartender View Post
If you are that envious of the people running the reds give it a try. Look both ways first though. That's what really bothers the people in cars, that they can't get away with it too.
I think what you really mean by this is that you're bothered that you can't run reds in your car too. I certainly know that the thing that bothers me about cyclists running reds isn't that I can't do it in my car. It's both that it's dangerous and that they should follow the same rules everyone else should follow. What really sucks is that even if a cyclist blatantly runs a red and cruises right out into a busy intersection, the poor driver that ends up hitting them is the one in big trouble for hitting the cyclist.
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Old 11-02-11, 01:21 PM
  #78  
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Dear cycling community,

I ride how I feel works best for me. I don't especially care about advocacy. I don't care about driver perception of cyclists since I don't think they care about cyclist perception of cars. I don't care about following the letter of the law to make someone else happy. I don't care about who passes me or who I pass. I don't care if you wear a helmet (except when i have to pay medical bills for you). I really only care about your riding when it interferes with mine - and when I'm "right". All that being said, I will leave you alone, unless your riding directly affects me, and expect you to leave me alone. If you decide to ride without lights and get creamed, that's your decision.

What works for me is Idaho laws. What works for me is filtering through traffic, since there is no reason for me to wait just because you can't squeeze past the next car like I can. What works for me is always trying to be ahead of traffic at a light...and starting my ride in the space where both sides have the red...since it decreases my chance of a right hook. On longer rides, I like lycra shorts. I don't care if you think they look stupid. I don't wear kits, but don't care if someone else does. I still wear concert t-shirts on weekends. I've commuted without a car for 6 years. I commuted by bike and with a car for 5 years prior to that and have ridden as part of my life for 27 years. I think I know what keeps me safe by now without your input.
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Old 11-02-11, 01:33 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
Dear cycling community,

I ride how I feel works best for me. I don't especially care about advocacy. I don't care about driver perception of cyclists since I don't think they care about cyclist perception of cars. I don't care about following the letter of the law to make someone else happy. I don't care about who passes me or who I pass. I don't care if you wear a helmet (except when i have to pay medical bills for you). I really only care about your riding when it interferes with mine - and when I'm "right". All that being said, I will leave you alone, unless your riding directly affects me, and expect you to leave me alone. If you decide to ride without lights and get creamed, that's your decision.

What works for me is Idaho laws. What works for me is filtering through traffic, since there is no reason for me to wait just because you can't squeeze past the next car like I can. What works for me is always trying to be ahead of traffic at a light...and starting my ride in the space where both sides have the red...since it decreases my chance of a right hook. On longer rides, I like lycra shorts. I don't care if you think they look stupid. I don't wear kits, but don't care if someone else does. I still wear concert t-shirts on weekends. I've commuted without a car for 6 years. I commuted by bike and with a car for 5 years prior to that and have ridden as part of my life for 27 years. I think I know what keeps me safe by now without your input.
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Old 11-02-11, 01:41 PM
  #80  
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Amen, Bro. Except maybe the part about wearing concert t-shirts.
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Old 11-02-11, 01:43 PM
  #81  
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
I think I know what keeps me safe by now without your input.
No, you don't. You'll ride how I tell you to ride...and you'll like it!
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Old 11-02-11, 01:45 PM
  #82  
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
Dear cycling community,

I ride how I feel works best for me. I don't especially care about advocacy. I don't care about driver perception of cyclists since I don't think they care about cyclist perception of cars. I don't care about following the letter of the law to make someone else happy. I don't care about who passes me or who I pass. I don't care if you wear a helmet (except when i have to pay medical bills for you). I really only care about your riding when it interferes with mine - and when I'm "right". All that being said, I will leave you alone, unless your riding directly affects me, and expect you to leave me alone. If you decide to ride without lights and get creamed, that's your decision.

What works for me is Idaho laws. What works for me is filtering through traffic, since there is no reason for me to wait just because you can't squeeze past the next car like I can. What works for me is always trying to be ahead of traffic at a light...and starting my ride in the space where both sides have the red...since it decreases my chance of a right hook. On longer rides, I like lycra shorts. I don't care if you think they look stupid. I don't wear kits, but don't care if someone else does. I still wear concert t-shirts on weekends. I've commuted without a car for 6 years. I commuted by bike and with a car for 5 years prior to that and have ridden as part of my life for 27 years. I think I know what keeps me safe by now without your input.
For whatever reasons, this "I don't care" attitude really rubs me the wrong way. I mean, I understand it to a point- I don't need to fret about what other people think of my personal decisions. But if I'm breaking the law, I need to start to care- otherwise our society is in a lot of trouble if it keeps going this way. I suppose I should infer from what you said that you don't follow the law just in order to make others happy, but that you think it is generally a good idea to follow it- but maybe I'm wrong.
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Old 11-02-11, 02:00 PM
  #83  
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I'm fine with the concert t-shirts..... unless it's a Winger t-shirt or something like it.
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Old 11-02-11, 02:05 PM
  #84  
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What's with the obnoxious fonts, the coloring-in, random capitalization and bolding, and inability to use the quote feature built into the forum? Is this arts and crafts in kindergarten?

Originally Posted by Digital_Cowboy View Post
It DOES?!? Where the bloody hell is that written? The last time I checked the motor vehicle law in most IF not ALL states, says:

<quote>
Every person propelling a vehicle by human power has all of the rights and all of the duties applicable to the driver of any other vehicle under this chapter, except as to special regulations in this chapter, and except as to provisions of this chapter which by their nature can have no application.
</quote>

I see NOTHING in there that says that cyclists get a "free pass" to the front of the line. So please show us where it is written that cyclists get this "free pass" to the front of the line.
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Old 11-02-11, 02:07 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by matimeo View Post
For whatever reasons, this "I don't care" attitude really rubs me the wrong way. I mean, I understand it to a point- I don't need to fret about what other people think of my personal decisions. But if I'm breaking the law, I need to start to care- otherwise our society is in a lot of trouble if it keeps going this way. I suppose I should infer from what you said that you don't follow the law just in order to make others happy, but that you think it is generally a good idea to follow it- but maybe I'm wrong.
What I'm saying is that I follow the law either because I think it's the right thing to do, or because I'm afraid of the repercussions in not following the law. If local police made a concerted effort to crack down on cyclists safely going through red lights, I'd probably start finding a different way to ride out of neccessity. Regardless of whether I can, I won't ride against traffic because it's dangerous for me and inconsiderate to others. I won't ride on the sidewalk because it's the wrong thing to do and does interfere with other people. I don't just ride a certain way because recent activists are concerned about perception.

I ride how I feel is safe for me, based on my experience, and how I feel is considerate to other traffic. I do not feel stopping at every light is safer for me, nor do I feel Idaho laws are inconsiderate to other traffic. If you want to start a rule based law discussion with me, I'll point out some of the ridiculous codes and laws that no one follows. I'll point out that the biggest group of rule breakers, on a % basis, are pedestrians. I'll also point out that an unenforced law isn't really a law. I have never once been stopped by police because of my riding and I always try to behave in a considerate manner...and have found that to be ultimately safer for me. If someone is mad because I filtered at a light on principle, I am not interested. I don't ride to improve the world, or to set an example. I ride to be safe, to get where I need to go and to have fun. With all due respect, a lot of the most self righteous cyclists in my area are some of the least experienced. I've been doing this for a long time...I have ridden more miles on bike than I've driven in a car and I feel I have ample experience to make judgements on what works for me.

Last edited by KonAaron Snake; 11-02-11 at 02:14 PM.
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Old 11-02-11, 02:15 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by chipcom View Post
No, you don't. You'll ride how I tell you to ride...and you'll like it!
Just let me know when you want your chicken pot pie.

Originally Posted by Kojak View Post
I'm fine with the concert t-shirts..... unless it's a Winger t-shirt or something like it.

Huh huh - Stewart likes Winger!

On an unrelated note, I did drink a beer with the guys from Warrant during a college radio station event MANY years back.
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Old 11-02-11, 05:42 PM
  #87  
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Originally Posted by matimeo View Post
For whatever reasons, this "I don't care" attitude really rubs me the wrong way. I mean, I understand it to a point- I don't need to fret about what other people think of my personal decisions. But if I'm breaking the law, I need to start to care- otherwise our society is in a lot of trouble if it keeps going this way. I suppose I should infer from what you said that you don't follow the law just in order to make others happy, but that you think it is generally a good idea to follow it- but maybe I'm wrong.
Sometimes I have to break little laws just to prove to myself I haven't sold out...then I laugh like a maniac...muya muya muya.....try it sometime. To blindly follow all of life's little laws blindly is like wearing a pair of shackles. Cast off those shackles, my friend!
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Old 11-02-11, 06:11 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by matimeo View Post
For whatever reasons, this "I don't care" attitude really rubs me the wrong way. I mean, I understand it to a point- I don't need to fret about what other people think of my personal decisions. But if I'm breaking the law, I need to start to care- otherwise our society is in a lot of trouble if it keeps going this way. I suppose I should infer from what you said that you don't follow the law just in order to make others happy, but that you think it is generally a good idea to follow it- but maybe I'm wrong.
People have been breaking the speed limit laws more than not for decades...as cyclists we don't like it, but somehow society as a whole as survived. People have been smoking reefer for decades...somehow we've avoided a total breakdown of civilization.

Come down from the ledge, sir.
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Old 11-02-11, 06:13 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by chipcom View Post

Come down from the ledge, sir.

No thanks- I like it up here.
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Old 11-02-11, 06:14 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
Just let me know when you want your chicken pot pie.




Huh huh - Stewart likes Winger!

On an unrelated note, I did drink a beer with the guys from Warrant during a college radio station event MANY years back.
Were they the cherry pie band?
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Old 11-02-11, 06:39 PM
  #91  
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- yes, they were.
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Old 11-02-11, 07:52 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by 3speed View Post
The problem with late mergers is that if everyone merges gradually when they see the lane is going to end, traffic can generally continue to flow. Then you get a few jackasses who will drive right up until the point that the lane runs out, have to slow down, then try to jump into the line causing the people behind them to have to hit the brakes, bringing the whole line to a halt. It's not a matter of rudeness for passing people. It's a matter of being a jackass who is more concerned with passing everyone else and getting themselves ahead of everyone they can and then destroying the flow of traffic by jumping in at a time when it doesn't flow nicely. Merge while traffic is still moving and people won't end up having to brake hard and cause traffic to back up.

Saying that since traffic flows better in general when people utilize all space, people should merge at the last second causing others to hit the brakes and hold up traffic, makes not much more sense than saying that we should also get rid of stop signs so that we can utilize the space in the intersection more. Sure, the space in the intersection is going to waste a lot of the time, but it still causes traffic to flow better if we are considerate and take turns and keep the flow rather than all trying to cram through at the last second.
Sorry, but this is just not true. Traffic in an Early Merge system moves at equal or slower speeds through construction zones than traffic in a Late Merge system, lengthens the queue heading into the construction zone, and produces an overall 15% less efficient traffic flow. Tom Vanderbilt covers this thoroughly in the book Traffic, drawing heavily from DOT studies and DOT reports of the effects of the implementation of different merge systems. Minnesota DOT experimented with a Dynamic Late Merge system in the early '00s, which reduced queue length by 35% but also decreased traffic flow through the construction zone; traffic engineers determined that the reduced traffic flow was the fault of drivers who insisted on merging early, despite instructions to the contrary.

Also, it is more efficient to remove stop signs; it's called a roundabout and it's been shown to both decrease traffic delays by up to 65% and to decrease intersection collisions by up to 40% (and fatalities from said collisions by 90%). What you call "tak[ing] turns and keep[ing] the flow" is exactly what happens in both roundabouts and at late merge zones, people taking turns and simultaneously maximizing road capacity usage.

Sure, some people are late mergers because they're greedy (assuming that they believe like you that early merging is for the good of the system as whole), but some are late mergers because they understand how this particular traffic problem works.

Originally Posted by 3speed View Post
What really sucks is that even if a cyclist blatantly runs a red and cruises right out into a busy intersection, the poor driver that ends up hitting them is the one in big trouble for hitting the cyclist.
In what universe is this the case? 'Cause it sure ain't this one. As a motorist I can blatantly run down a cyclist and, as long as I'm sober and not on the phone, I'll get away with a fine at worst; in this country, at least.
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Old 11-02-11, 08:56 PM
  #93  
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I spoke with a long time NYC cyclist who was obviously of the reckless type.

He shared many glorious broken bone, and injury stories.

In about one year and over 2000 miles of NYC cycling, my worst injury was a badly bruised/sprained knee. And, I plan to keep it that way.

5 cyclist deaths in this town just this past summer.

On my way to my LBS this evening I saw a large steel garage dorr spray painted with the saying, "Saving a minute of your life is not worth losing your life in a minute."
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Old 11-02-11, 09:37 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
What I'm saying is that I follow the law either because I think it's the right thing to do, or because I'm afraid of the repercussions in not following the law. If local police made a concerted effort to crack down on cyclists safely going through red lights, I'd probably start finding a different way to ride out of neccessity. Regardless of whether I can, I won't ride against traffic because it's dangerous for me and inconsiderate to others. I won't ride on the sidewalk because it's the wrong thing to do and does interfere with other people. I don't just ride a certain way because recent activists are concerned about perception.

I ride how I feel is safe for me, based on my experience, and how I feel is considerate to other traffic. I do not feel stopping at every light is safer for me, nor do I feel Idaho laws are inconsiderate to other traffic. If you want to start a rule based law discussion with me, I'll point out some of the ridiculous codes and laws that no one follows. I'll point out that the biggest group of rule breakers, on a % basis, are pedestrians. I'll also point out that an unenforced law isn't really a law. I have never once been stopped by police because of my riding and I always try to behave in a considerate manner...and have found that to be ultimately safer for me. If someone is mad because I filtered at a light on principle, I am not interested. I don't ride to improve the world, or to set an example. I ride to be safe, to get where I need to go and to have fun. With all due respect, a lot of the most self righteous cyclists in my area are some of the least experienced. I've been doing this for a long time...I have ridden more miles on bike than I've driven in a car and I feel I have ample experience to make judgements on what works for me.
You are like a voice of reason in the wilderness, or something like that. I agree with almost everything you say, except for the riding on the sidewalk part. I do that occasionally, but always yield the right of way to others that are using it, which is rare on my commute.

BTW, does anyone get mad at motorcycle riders who filter up to a red light? I was in my car today, and i didn't notice anyone getting upset when this happened. Maybe because I'm in California and this is more of an acceptable practice? I'm not sure if this is OK in other states, but is perfectly legal here. You can share a lane with another vehicle legally, so I think a bicycle would have the same right to filter.
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Old 11-03-11, 12:22 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by GriddleCakes View Post
Sorry, but this is just not true. Traffic in an Early Merge system moves at equal or slower speeds through construction zones than traffic in a Late Merge system, lengthens the queue heading into the construction zone, and produces an overall 15% less efficient traffic flow. Tom Vanderbilt covers this thoroughly in the book Traffic, drawing heavily from DOT studies and DOT reports of the effects of the implementation of different merge systems. Minnesota DOT experimented with a Dynamic Late Merge system in the early '00s, which reduced queue length by 35% but also decreased traffic flow through the construction zone; traffic engineers determined that the reduced traffic flow was the fault of drivers who insisted on merging early, despite instructions to the contrary.

Also, it is more efficient to remove stop signs; it's called a roundabout and it's been shown to both decrease traffic delays by up to 65% and to decrease intersection collisions by up to 40% (and fatalities from said collisions by 90%). What you call "tak[ing] turns and keep[ing] the flow" is exactly what happens in both roundabouts and at late merge zones, people taking turns and simultaneously maximizing road capacity usage.

Sure, some people are late mergers because they're greedy (assuming that they believe like you that early merging is for the good of the system as whole), but some are late mergers because they understand how this particular traffic problem works.



In what universe is this the case? 'Cause it sure ain't this one. As a motorist I can blatantly run down a cyclist and, as long as I'm sober and not on the phone, I'll get away with a fine at worst; in this country, at least.
Are we talking late merging as design or late merging as people racing to the front and then battling there way into the lane? I feel like these are different situations and could lead to different results. I haven't done the research you have on the topic though.
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Old 11-03-11, 02:08 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by GriddleCakes View Post
Sorry, but this is just not true. Traffic in an Early Merge system moves at equal or slower speeds through construction zones than traffic in a Late Merge system, lengthens the queue heading into the construction zone, and produces an overall 15% less efficient traffic flow. Tom Vanderbilt covers this thoroughly in the book Traffic, drawing heavily from DOT studies and DOT reports of the effects of the implementation of different merge systems. Minnesota DOT experimented with a Dynamic Late Merge system in the early '00s, which reduced queue length by 35% but also decreased traffic flow through the construction zone; traffic engineers determined that the reduced traffic flow was the fault of drivers who insisted on merging early, despite instructions to the contrary.

Also, it is more efficient to remove stop signs; it's called a roundabout and it's been shown to both decrease traffic delays by up to 65% and to decrease intersection collisions by up to 40% (and fatalities from said collisions by 90%). What you call "tak[ing] turns and keep[ing] the flow" is exactly what happens in both roundabouts and at late merge zones, people taking turns and simultaneously maximizing road capacity usage.

Sure, some people are late mergers because they're greedy (assuming that they believe like you that early merging is for the good of the system as whole), but some are late mergers because they understand how this particular traffic problem works.



In what universe is this the case? 'Cause it sure ain't this one. As a motorist I can blatantly run down a cyclist and, as long as I'm sober and not on the phone, I'll get away with a fine at worst; in this country, at least.
First of all, seriously? Who reads this stuff for fun? My eyes are glazing over now. Did I stumble into A&S????

Second, while the roundabout IS more efficient, it is hell for the blind to negotiate. It's not always about efficiency.

So there.

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Old 11-03-11, 02:45 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by weshigh View Post
Are we talking late merging as design or late merging as people racing to the front and then battling there way into the lane? I feel like these are different situations and could lead to different results. I haven't done the research you have on the topic though.
You see? This is what I was talking about when I said that people perceive filtering cyclists as cheating. Late mergers aren't "racing to the front", it just seems that way because you got into the slower lane. And why is it "battling" their way into the lane? Am I "battling" my way into a full lane when I merge from an on-ramp? Is it "battling" when I merge into adjacent full lane to prepare for an exit? It's merging, not combat; you're using emotional language to vilify something that you don't agree with.

Studies were done on sections of highway where signage and lane control favored either late or early merging (without control the resultant data are much less reliable). And even though late merge systems reduce traffic congestion, implementation of them faces a greater challenge of overcoming cultural norms, where people view late mergers as inconsiderate jerks and refuse to co-operate. But when everyone merges early (because it's the right thing to do, the nice thing to do), traffic jams spread further and last longer.

Originally Posted by Ratchet View Post
First of all, seriously? Who reads this stuff for fun? My eyes are glazing over now. Did I stumble into A&S????

Second, while the roundabout IS more efficient, it is hell for the blind to negotiate. It's not always about efficiency.

So there.

I found the book fascinating; biology, psychology, physics, sociology, politics, and real world mathematics, engagingly written and dealing with a subject that I personally encounter every day. Admittedly, I enjoy science writing and mathematics, so maybe my idea of a fun read is different than yours.

The roundabout is more efficient for vehicular traffic; as a pedestrian and a cyclist I hate the damn things. At least as they've been implemented up here, with insufficient speed control plus really poor sight lines and crossing angles for foot traffic; the roundabouts in Bend were great. You're right, it's not always about the efficiency of travel for one user group over all others. Or at least it shouldn't be.

Anyway, derail aside, the only point that I was trying to make is that slights that people perceive while in traffic might not have any basis in reality. Just because motorists get angry at filtering cyclists (and motorcyclists too; check the comments sections on articles about outlawing filtering or enforcing existing laws), doesn't mean that their anger is justified. They just feel like they've been cut in front of, that the monkey on the bike just got to the banana before them even though they were waiting in line like an obedient primate. It's instinctual.
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Old 11-03-11, 04:39 AM
  #98  
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I haven't seen motor cycles filter, or even scooters filter, in my area. I have seen some unsafe speeds and passes by people on sport bikes lately.

I am just extremely grateful that the trend of 4 wheelers and atbs driving like maniacs seems to have ended. Those were the scariest bastards around...12-18 year old kids driving like maniacs up bike lanes and through traffic, sidewalks, etc.
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Old 11-03-11, 04:43 AM
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Originally Posted by spudston View Post
You are like a voice of reason in the wilderness, or something like that. I agree with almost everything you say, except for the riding on the sidewalk part. I do that occasionally, but always yield the right of way to others that are using it, which is rare on my commute.

BTW, does anyone get mad at motorcycle riders who filter up to a red light? I was in my car today, and i didn't notice anyone getting upset when this happened. Maybe because I'm in California and this is more of an acceptable practice? I'm not sure if this is OK in other states, but is perfectly legal here. You can share a lane with another vehicle legally, so I think a bicycle would have the same right to filter.
I think the sidewalk thing really depends on where you are. My commute is through a highly populated urban area with lots of people using sidewalks...it's not appropriate to ride on them and there just isn't room. I think things might be different in other areas...but I'd still do it very slowly and only for a short distance. I think sidewalk riding is actually more dangerous for the rider in most cases because cars and other traffic don't expect you to be there. My goal while riding is to be noticeable and predictable. I signal, I use lights and I try making eye contact at intersections and stop signs.
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Old 11-03-11, 07:31 AM
  #100  
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Originally Posted by matimeo View Post
For whatever reasons, this "I don't care" attitude really rubs me the wrong way. ...
I agree with Matimeo in theory, but with Aaron in practice. In the case of advocacy, for example: I would love to be able to do something and make a difference. If advocacy helped anything, I would advocate. But it doesn't. We cyclists can't even agree with one another. If I could change the world for the better (as I see it) I would get just as much resistance from cyclists as from anyone else. So I don't. It's not that I don't care; it's that I don't care enough.
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