kleng

Swapped over to Dura Ace 9000 mechanical when building out some new bikes, the problem was that all wheelsets I have only had 10 speed freewheel and the free hubs on them could not be changed to the 11 speed version.

So riding the 10 speed cassette using the 9000 derailleurs was a bit of a comprimise and it did not have perfect indexing due to the difference in the cog gap between 10 and 11 speed cassettes.

To make the 11 speed cassette fit, I removed the smallest cog (11 tooth) and reused the lock ring from the 7900 cassette which fits perfectly into the 12 cog.

The set-up works flawlessly so far, with perfect indexing given the 10 speed cassette now has the smaller 11 speed cog spacing.

This especially advantageous if you have expensive 10 speed wheelsets that can't be upgraded, (e.g Reynolds 2011 RZR's and pre 11 speed Shimano wheelsets) or you don't have the full budget to upgrade.

Hope this works for others in the same position as me.

In this photo you can see the lockring fits perfectly with the 12 tooth cog and allows the cassette to be tightened normally.

Jed19

Thanks for posting that.

kv501

That was a lot of explanation to tell people to take off the 11 cog and use an older lock ring.

Either way I get what you're saying here, but if you can afford to buy a new DA group I think it's counter intuitive because the main point of DA9000 is to go to 11 speed. The tiny amount of weight difference is negligible at best, and as far as front shifting (which I never felt was an issue with DA7900 anyway), you could just buy a FD and be done with it. You also now have a shifter with 11 indexes and only 10 cogs. One step forward and two steps back, especially with that expensive of a group set.

Jiggle

You can't just buy at front derailleur to get the 9000 front shifting experience. You need the shifter as well.

10 vs 11 cogs is completely irrelevant. The extra cog is and always will be the gimmicky part of the new gruppos.

Dunbar

If any of your wheelsets can be converted to 10sp Campy freehubs you can install an 11sp Campy cassette and it's supposed to work fine with 6800 or 9000.

kleng

Good point, unfortunately I'd have to send the RZR's back to Utah from Australia to get the free wheel converted over, which will cost a lot.

kleng

Yes your right, it is a bit of backward approach, but I do have some wheelsets that have the 11 speed cassette, so this method works with those that can't be converted.

shelbyfv

I think this is very helpful info, thanks! There are lots of nice wheelsets in use that can't use 11 speed cassettes. By most accounts the 9000 and 6800 groups are improved over their predecessors in ways other than cog count (in itself only a gimmick as mentioned above.)

Campag4life

Aside from some of the grumbling, your approach OP has undeniable value. Thanks for sharing that tip...a big help to those with many 10s Shimano wheelsets.
Quick question. Is the smallest cog on say an Ultegra 6800 11s cassette separate so you can simply remove it without any hacking? Do you know if an Ultegra 6800 lockring will work?...or do you have to use a lockring from a 10s cassette?
Thanks again.

PS: I am curious about something that perhaps you can help me with since you have multiple 11s Shimano groupsets. Can you measure the cable pull for me with DA 9000/Ultegra 6800? How much cable do these shifters pull per each click? I can't find that info anywhere. I believe it is graduated, aka a bit more cable pull per click for larger cogs like Campy...but was curious what Shimano revised their cable pull to from older DA 7900 10s?
Thanks

rpenmanparker 

Perhaps all that was wrong with the OP's thread starter was not emphasizing his fix is especially helpful when dealing with both 11 speed and 10 speed wheels. The 11 speed group is required to run 11 speed wheels, and the fix allows it to be back compatible. That seems like a pretty good plan for upgrading for lots of folks who own not easily convertible wheels.

What about 9070? Can it be programmed to work similarly with a trimmed down freewheel? Are there limit screws to rely on instead?

kv501

Yes. The smallest 6 cogs are individual. Of those 6 the larger 3 are separated with spacers, and the remaining cogs nest within each other and have a flange spacing them apart.

Campag4life

There was nothing wrong with the OP's thread starter. Unbelievable.

Campag4life

Thanks
Can you use a 11s lockring with 10 cogs?
As time permits, could you measure cable pull say over three or four shifts and divide by no. of clicks?
Reason I ask is for cross compatibility of different derailleurs with shifters.
Thanks

kv501

Not sure about the lock ring, I will give that a try next time I swap cassettes (I have a PowerTap wheel that I some times out a 10 speed cassette on for use with a 105 bike).

Re: cable pull, the only 11 speed bike I have at the moment is Di2. I would be interested in hearing from someone, though.

kv501

Is there enough travel in the limit screw to safely limit the shifters to 10 shifts? In effect, you are just moving the cassette body outboard and I'd want to be 100% sure I wasn't going to inadvertently put the chain in the spokes.

Maybe this is a non-issue, but I obviously haven't tried it.

Campag4life

Once we learn what cable pull is for 11s, then we can determine if we can mix and match shifters and derailleurs from other groupsets...including combining Campy and Shimano 10 and 11s.
I am pretty surprised I can't find the nos. on the web. Cable pull nos. are available for pretty much every groupset out there but not yet for Shimano 11s.

rpenmanparker 

I meant the only thing a few could find to criticize. OP didn't make it clear he was actuly getting 11 speed use out of his 11 speed system. That opened him up to some criticism which you denoted as "grumbling". I'm just pointing out that OP had a valid point to make but left out some information that would have helped the "audience" appreciate it.

kleng

The 11 speed lock ring flange section is smaller in diameter than the 10 speed, so I think it wouldn't fit a 10 speed cog very well.

Every click on the 11 speed lever pulls the cable 1.6mm

kleng

Yes the limit screw on the RD allows you limit the RD movement to the 10 cogs. this is on 9000 mechanical

Campag4life

But...we aren't talking about fitting a 10 speed cog very well. We are talking about fitting an 11s cog well. The OP is taking a 11s cassette and removing the smallest cog. The lockring has to fit no. 2 cog which is from a 11s cassette. Please explain further if you would.

1.6mm cable pull for every click? Seems outrageous on two fronts. Every technical report I have read is Shimano copied Campy's graduated cable pull for 11s. Campy hasn't had equivalent cable pull for years.

Second issue is...1.6mm cable pull for each click seems inordinately short. Never head of any cable pull in the industry for any groupset less than 2mm. This would seem to create a lot of shift error and make the group hugely sensitive to adjustment. Campy by contrast has a 2.6mm cable pull for 11s.

None the less thanks for your comments.

Campag4life

I knew exactly what he was talking about. Any sort of criticism when a member comes forward and shares something as important as he did just seems like very poor form to me. Some 10s Shimano wheelsets are not easily converted to 11s. Some are with interchangeable freehubs, like Fulcrum for example. In no way does it minimize the value of the OP's contribution which is important for those that don't want to spend a lot of money on another wheelset and yet want the technical improvement of DA9000/Ultegra 6800.

rpenmanparker 

Since the hole in every cog has to be exactly the diameter and pattern that fits the splines on the freehub body, and the flange of either type lock ring must extend over the edge of the freehub at least a little bit, I don't see how lock ring flange diameter and whether it is 1st or 2nd cog would be an issue.The only problem I can see is if the flange of the lock ring bottoms out and engages the freehub body before it begins to compress the 10 cogs and leaves the cassette loose on the splines. That could happen since 10/11 cogs for a 11 speed cassette are narrower than 10/10 cogs for a 10 speed cassette due to tighter cog spacing on the 11 speed version. In that case a spacer/washer outside of the 10th cog would fix the problem. I imagine that one of the thin spacers that are available to adjust the spacing of a cassette stack when trying to fit Shimano to Campy or vice-versa might do fine to give the lock ring contact with the stack before it bottoms out.

shelbyfv

Let's see if I have this correct re:the lockring. You remove the 11t and 12t cogs and lockring. Replace them with a 12t final cog and the matching lockring. Two 11 speed cassettes are involved. If this is right, it's similar to the "8 of 9 on7" method.

ultraman6970

Eventhought I kind'a see why shimano went and created a whole new format with their 11 speed cassettes, since they showed up the thing I always thought was a really bad move because now you need new freaking wheels to run their stuff, like wheels were like 3 bucks for a pair you know. They tried to move out of campagnolo specs in the 11 cassette spacing that makes sense, but get new wheels etc etc.. even... the spacing got so close (closer than ever) anyways that did not surprise me at all when guys started reporting shimano 11 working in campagnolo 11 w/o any problem. Would not surprise me if shimano people using 11 campagnolo wheels working fine.

OP, good fix who needs the 11th cog anyways? hehehe

rpenmanparker 

Why do you need a special final cog? I don't think so. The thread for the lock ring are in the hub body not the cog.