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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Bitten by Tubeless

Old 01-02-20, 02:19 PM
  #101  
WhyFi
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Which made me wonder - so one adds more sealant every how often, which adds more and more weight to the tire? And the old dried stuff against the tire's inner surface, what happens to that?
It really depends, but it's probably not nearly as bad as you'd imagine.

In a road tire, even the more generously sized ones, you're putting maybe 1-2 fl oz. For a front tire that rarely punctures, this can often last until you rotate it to the rear (or until you rotate in a new rear).

For a rear tire, I'll check every 6-8 weeks during the worst puncture season. If it's low, I'll top off. If it's gone bad and watery, I'll unseat one bead, mop it up with a paper towel and put in fresh stuff. Just spitballing, but at the end of the useful life of the tire, the dried up webbing is probably less than half the weight of a typical tube.
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Old 01-02-20, 02:20 PM
  #102  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy
Which made me wonder - so one adds more sealant every how often, which adds more and more weight to the tire? And the old dried stuff against the tire's inner surface, what happens to that?
It's just a small amount of latex. Most of the weight of the sealant is the fluid, so once it dries away, it adds very little mass. If a big blob of latex ends up in one place, i.e. if a wheel is left sitting around without motion for a while, it's easy to remove.
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Old 01-02-20, 02:48 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by bruce19
I can only go by my experience with my Mavic Ksyrium Elite USTs. And, that's been one season. However, the tubeless replace some Mavic Aksiums that came on my new CAAD 12. They are lighter, smoother, more comfortable and easier to spin up. I've had zero problems with set up or use. And, at about $400 a set w/tires they are a killer deal. I'm not going back.
This is my experience with Mavic UST too. I don't know why more people don't run Mavic wheel/tire/pad combo. Every goathead I've come across has sealed up nicely. I must have a dozen, or so, in one tire alone! I do a pre/post ride tire pressure inspection and that's usually how I find out there's a puncture. Even Mavic's sealant works well.
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Old 01-02-20, 02:54 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Princess_Allez
This is my experience with Mavic UST too. I don't know why more people don't run Mavic wheel/tire/pad combo.
I do.

For about 15 years they produced crap, and it was a PITA to get replacement parts when you needed them(which was often). They seem to have improved things over the past few years, but it's gonna take some time to repair that reputation.
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Old 01-02-20, 03:01 PM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
I do.

For about 15 years they produced crap, and it was a PITA to get replacement parts when you needed them(which was often). They seem to have improved things over the past few years, but it's gonna take some time to repair that reputation.
Also late to the party with rims that weren’t super-skinny, or had modern (non-V) aero profiles. It was hard to justify looking at them for a premium; wifey has Aksiums now just for use on the STAC, which requires a metal rim and her SystemSix came with carbon.
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Old 01-02-20, 03:09 PM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
I do.

For about 15 years they produced crap, and it was a PITA to get replacement parts when you needed them(which was often). They seem to have improved things over the past few years, but it's gonna take some time to repair that reputation.
I'm kinda new to cycling so I wasn't aware of their bad reputation, but I kinda got a feel for it. It seems people hated their hubs, but their current generation"id 360" hubs are a copy of some popular dt swiss model, which supposedly lends to reliability.
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Old 01-02-20, 03:19 PM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by noodle soup
I do.

For about 15 years they produced crap, and it was a PITA to get replacement parts when you needed them(which was often). They seem to have improved things over the past few years, but it's gonna take some time to repair that reputation.
I've been using Mavic clinchers and now USTs for about a decade. Maybe I've been fortunate but I've never had a problem. Once hit a pothole with both wheels at 40 mph on a down hill. They never even went out of true.
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Old 01-02-20, 03:39 PM
  #108  
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Originally Posted by bruce19
I've been using Mavic clinchers and now USTs for about a decade. Maybe I've been fortunate but I've never had a problem. Once hit a pothole with both wheels at 40 mph on a down hill. They never even went out of true.
I smash going over rain channels and jumping potholes... I always just hope for the best. After reading your experience, I feel safer about my use.
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Old 01-02-20, 03:42 PM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by bruce19
I've been using Mavic clinchers and now USTs for about a decade. Maybe I've been fortunate but I've never had a problem. Once hit a pothole with both wheels at 40 mph on a down hill. They never even went out of true.


​​​​​​​You should write ad copy for Mavic.

Last edited by noodle soup; 01-02-20 at 04:00 PM.
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Old 01-02-20, 03:56 PM
  #110  
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[QUOTE=noodle soup;21267484]
Originally Posted by bruce19
I've been using Mavic clinchers and now USTs for about a decade. Maybe I've been fortunate but I've never had a problem. Once hit a pothole with both wheels at 40 mph on a down hill. They never even went out of true.[/QUOTE]


You should write ad copy for Mavic.
Happy to do so under two conditions. I get to speak the truth and I get paid. So far, only one has happened. It's not the paid part.
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Old 01-02-20, 04:09 PM
  #111  
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I try to pay attention to where I put my wheels at 40 mph because I like having teeth. If I can't see what's coming up, or there's some other reason I can't ride in control, I slow down.
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Old 01-02-20, 04:37 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
I try to pay attention to where I put my wheels at 40 mph because I like having teeth. If I can't see what's coming up, or there's some other reason I can't ride in control, I slow down.
+1

“Hitting a pothole at 40mph”? It sounds like he isn’t very aware of his surroundings.
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Old 01-03-20, 08:23 AM
  #113  
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+1 on MAVIC USTs and MAVIC customer service. The interactions and support I have had with MAVIC have been phenomenal, specifically Chris Brown, he is a Rockstar. You can definitely feel the difference going from tubes to tubeless (at least I can). I have one bike setup with tubes and the other with tubeless. Tubeless rolls so much better IMO.
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Old 01-03-20, 12:58 PM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest
I try to pay attention to where I put my wheels at 40 mph because I like having teeth. If I can't see what's coming up, or there's some other reason I can't ride in control, I slow down.
amen. The older I get the more cautious I get because it takes longer and is more difficult to heal. And because I got smarter as I got older.

Originally Posted by Spoonrobot
One example of tubeless tire lifetime additional weight.

New Grand Bois Hetre: 422 grams
Hetre worn to the cords after 3500 miles: 370 grams

New tubeless Grand Bois Hetre: 417 grams
Added sealant over 6 months/3500 miles (dispensed as 4 oz/2 oz/2 oz/2 oz): 10 liquid ounces/300 grams
Hetre tubeless worn to the cords after 3500 miles: 395 grams

Tubeless sealant weight is 90% liquid/carrier. Once it "evaporates" the weight of the remnant is minimal. A smaller road tire would be closer to 2 oz/1 oz/1oz as the tire is much smaller and the lifetime much shorter.
Thanks for this! I always wanted to do it but I keep forgetting to weigh the tire when I install
it.
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Old 01-03-20, 02:22 PM
  #115  
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Re: Sealant weight- I recently watched a video of a guy removing the dried up sealant in his 32mm tyres. He weighed the stuff that came out. It was about 10 grams per tyre. Not that bad...
Re: Mavic Wheels- The older Mavic designs are fine as long as you preventatively maintain your bike. If you ignore your bike, then a lot of things won't work for you. Ride a Schwinn Varsity.
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Old 01-05-20, 06:55 PM
  #116  
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I think I will continue to use tubed tires on mag wheels because I have had no trouble with them in over a year. It may seem frivolous, but I had a bad boss who threatened to fire me for wearing green socks to teach my math classes when no other professor had to put up with such a thing. When hes extra duties requiring me to drive hundreds of miles at my own expense and other things were costing me too much for which I was never compensated I quit. I celebrated by burning all my black socks and I only wear green socks. To further this custom I order green tires on ebay rather than use black tires. The green tire treads last longer than the black tire treads which came new with the bike. I might consider tubeless tires if I can get them in green at a reasonable price. I use my bike to commute and save gasoline.
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Old 01-05-20, 09:27 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by Ferrouscious
Re: Mavic Wheels- The older Mavic designs are fine as long as you preventatively maintain your bike. If you ignore your bike, then a lot of things won't work for you. Ride a Schwinn Varsity.
Mavic had a good reputation until about 2010, and then it went to ****.

Proprietary spokes and nipples suck, and their freehub bodies were fragile. Mavic was a terrible company to deal with as a vendor, but some of you people have said they've changed.

These days, I couldn't possibly care less about what Mavic offers. There are many other companies out there that haven't been a PITA.
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Old 01-06-20, 05:48 AM
  #118  
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Originally Posted by Anna_Sazzi
There are tubeless specific tire levers. I guess the old style are not good with tubeless tires?
I cannot post a photo but google IRC tubeless tire lever. One end of the lever is for installing a tire, the other end to remove the tire.
I think I can post photo now
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Old 01-06-20, 06:45 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by Anna_Sazzi
I think I can post photo now
Haven't run in to a situation where the old-school levers, the ones already in everyone's tool kits, haven't worked. Neither have I had an instance where damage was done to the tire or the rim. If one is in need some new levers, anyway, and these are a convenient purchase at a reasonable price, by all means, give them a whirl, but they're hardly a necessity.
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Old 01-06-20, 07:29 AM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
Haven't run in to a situation where the old-school levers, the ones already in everyone's tool kits, haven't worked. Neither have I had an instance where damage was done to the tire or the rim. If one is in need some new levers, anyway, and these are a convenient purchase at a reasonable price, by all means, give them a whirl, but they're hardly a necessity.
I’m curious how the pointy ends (of the IRC tire levers pictured above) work to mount tubeless better than the flat end. I referenced Schwalbe flat tire levers as being a bit lower profile than Pedro’s based first on a brief review I read, and then backed up by my own experience using them to mount Hutchinson and Panaracer tubeless tires as well as Challenge open tubular tires more successfully than the thicker levers.

Just being practiced in tight tire mounting helps me not become anxious, and then impatient. Looking after the necessary details such as using low profile tubeless rim tape, making sure to drop the mounted bead into the middle depression in the rim and then being focused for final mounting of the 2nd bead has improved my tubeless mounting (and Challenge open tubulars which I’m running on my main road bike now) a lot. Also, leather gardening gloves that are snug fitting have given me much better grip for mounting that last couple of inches of a tight bead without the use of tire levers.

An equally frustrating tubeless mounting issue I have had is more one of poor bead air sealing. I have only mounted 5 different tubeless wheels so far so hopefully my proficiency and success rate will increase with a larger number of tubeless tire mounts. The square rubber bead on a tubeless tire where it seals off on the tubeless-ready rim shelf isn’t always as tight a fit as it should be. So mounting with compressed air does help but I had that stubborn Hutchinson Atom/Dura Ace 7850 that just leaked & leaked with tons of microbubbles half way around one bead. Soapy water didn’t help much so I used small amounts of silicon O-ring grease on the rim bead shelf & it finally did the trick.

Last edited by masi61; 01-06-20 at 09:51 AM.
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Old 01-06-20, 08:04 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by masi61
I’m curious how the pointy ends (of the IRC tire levers pictured above) work to mount tubeless better than the flat end.
I've never needed a lever to get a tire on, so it's neither here nor there for me.
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Old 01-06-20, 08:08 AM
  #122  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
I've never needed a lever to get a tire on, so it's neither here nor there for me.
I used to be able to claim the same thing, then I met the 700x25 Maxxis Padrone and 700x23 IRC RaceLight. They both felt like they were supposed to mount on smaller rims.
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Old 01-06-20, 09:54 AM
  #123  
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I live a couple hours south of Rob. Roads ok and I concur almost exactly same circumstances. I rarely flat and see no reason at all going tubeless. I would go tubular before that and never ran tubulars. I see no advantages to tubeless at all. I suppose depends on where and how you ride. I still run Conti GP II S 23 mm. I may try 25 s but I don’t see a huge comfort factor to be had.

in my mind tubeless is crazy but I sure I have a lot to learn.
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Old 01-06-20, 10:17 AM
  #124  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS
Riding without a backup tube or inflation method doesn't sound real smart. I've used tubes for the life of more than one tire, so I don't see any cost savings. I've logged 5400 miles in the last 18 months (when I returned to cycling after 8 years off) without a puncture. I've never ruined a tire in 40 years of riding, but I know it does happen. I still carry two tubes and two co2 cartridges, just in case.
Riding without a tube or inflation method/tools isn't very smart(IMO), that's why I still take them with me in a seat bag. I ride 12-13k miles a year, and used to go through a dozen or more tubes and CO2 cartridges. Last year I didn't use 1.
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Old 01-06-20, 12:01 PM
  #125  
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Originally Posted by WhyFi
I've never needed a lever to get a tire on, so it's neither here nor there for me.
I used to say this all the time. Was that way for years. I actually had a debate once with a teammate who swore it was impossible to mount some sort of tire - guessing a gravel king sk - without getting blisters. I was dumbfounded. He then de-friended me and said I was lying when I said I never got any blisters ever.

I also have another teammate that swears it's impossible to change a flat on tubeless ready rims mid ride. That you have to call an uber and do it at home or in the shop.

...he also runs a shop.

Fact is people just aren't good at stuff or really only know what they know and refuse to believe anything else is different.

So - back to the point: Yes I used to say that I never needed a lever. I have run into a lot of situations where I have needed a lever though. That said I can still usually mount continentals on tubeless setups without a lever - a combo some swear is impossible. *meh* Also said I mount thousands of tires a year between service, the wheel business, and team/neutral support on all sorts of bikes from all walks of life.

There are more important things to hang my hat on than whether or not I occasionally use a tire lever. IMHO
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