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Sail bike?

Old 09-24-16, 12:36 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
Kites can only pull you downwind and to either side of downwind to angles of about 60° to either side.

OTOH a sail works best in cross winds, and will work at any angle including upwind up to about 35-45° of dead ahead.
hard to tack a course on a narrow Bike path..


We have Boats on the river for that .. a vistor last wednesday VFP Golden Rule Project | Advancing VFP Opposition to Nuclear Weapons and War

but due to the storm coming ashore next morning, stayed in port until this morning..
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Old 09-24-16, 12:37 PM
  #52  
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I can't imagine (with my limited imagination) that a powered propeller could be more efficient than driving the wheels. In any case, this one wasn't the vehicle which set the record. The 126mph vehicle was purpose built with a single outrigger, and taller wing and no prop.

Yes, I know it's an old thread, but it seems to be reborn.
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Old 09-24-16, 12:41 PM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by fietsbob View Post
hard to tack a course on a narrow Bike path..


.
You missed the point.

a 270°+ workable wind angle range is vastly superior to one limited to one of 120° or less. Also consider that wind power is most effective when the wind angle is slightly forward of abeam. This way the wind speed increase with the vehicle speed, making speeds faster than the wind possible.

OTOH - running down wind, the wind power diminishes with vehicle speed and the maximum speed possible is less than the wind speed.
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Old 09-24-16, 12:42 PM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
I can't imagine (with my limited imagination) that a powered propeller could be more efficient than driving the wheels. In any case, this one wasn't the vehicle which set the record. The 126mph vehicle was purpose built with a single outrigger, and taller wing and no prop.
Oh, it takes a little imagination, but it is a wind driven propeller that drives the vehicle faster than the wind. I don't remember if it was connected to the wheels or not.

Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
OTOH - running down wind, the wind power diminishes with vehicle speed and the maximum speed possible is less than the wind speed.
With a spinnaker sail, that would be true. But with the propeller above, it isn't true. The vehicle actually runs direct down wind faster than the wind.

Water?
Note those record runs were done in a dry lake bed.
Imagine the benefits of future climate change

Last edited by CliffordK; 09-24-16 at 12:48 PM.
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Old 09-24-16, 01:03 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
Oh, it takes a little imagination, but it is a wind driven propeller that drives the vehicle faster than the wind. I don't remember if it was connected to the wheels or not.
Yes, it can have positive speed, meaning run downwind faster than the wind, but that's about the only benefit. Since most of us are more concerned with ground speed, it's usefulness is limited.



Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
With a spinnaker sail, that would be true. But with the propeller above, it isn't true. The vehicle actually runs direct down wind faster than the wind.
I don't know why you quoted my comparison to kites here. but it was out of context, except maybe to note that a propeller may be faster than a kite in the limited conditions. OTOH, it may not be relevant to compare a HPV (prop) to a WPV, or hybrid, wind/wing, with leg power boost.

If you look at his 126mph wind record, I'm sure that if the vehicle had pedal power geared for speeds in the 125+ range, he could have kicked (no pun) it up a notch over the 126.
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Old 06-22-17, 06:03 PM
  #56  
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Back in the day when I attended U C Davis there were thousands of bikes on a campus that is essentially flat. When it was windy we would ride down wind and spread our arms out wearing an open jacket and use it for a sail. it worked and was fun. Pretty hard to do anything but down wind since a side wind would tend to blow you over. it would work better with 3 or 4 wheels but a 2 wheel bike, not.
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Old 06-22-17, 06:45 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
With a spinnaker sail, that would be true. But with the propeller above, it isn't true. The vehicle actually runs direct down wind faster than the wind.
I know this is an old post but I'm pretty sure this is impossible. If you're going directly down wind, as you approach the speed of the wind the relative wind tends toward zero. Even if (magically) there is no tire and bearing drag, once you hit the speed of wind, relative wind disappears.
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Old 06-22-17, 07:25 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by tyrion View Post
I know this is an old post but I'm pretty sure this is impossible. If you're going directly down wind, as you approach the speed of the wind the relative wind tends toward zero. Even if (magically) there is no tire and bearing drag, once you hit the speed of wind, relative wind disappears.
That is what one would think, but apparently not quite true.

It would be true with a spinnaker sail. But, the direct downwind cars are being driven by a propeller. But, rather than having the wind turn the propeller, the wheels turn the propeller which blows wind out the back. So, the faster the vehicle moves forward, the faster the propeller turns, and the more wind it blows against the blowing wind from the rear.

Or, perhaps one would say the greater the pressure differential between front and rear.

Here is a good explanation.
https://www.wired.com/2010/06/downwi...than-the-wind/

Apparently they have built upwind vehicles using the opposite principle.
https://www.wired.com/2012/07/wind-powered-car-upwind/
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Old 06-22-17, 08:40 PM
  #59  
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Originally Posted by FBinNY View Post
You missed the point.

a 270°+ workable wind angle range is vastly superior to one limited to one of 120° or less. Also consider that wind power is most effective when the wind angle is slightly forward of abeam. This way the wind speed increase with the vehicle speed, making speeds faster than the wind possible.

OTOH - running down wind, the wind power diminishes with vehicle speed and the maximum speed possible is less than the wind speed.
Actually, the faster you go the more the apparent wind angle shifts foreward, to the extent that really fast boats, like America's Cup foiling cats are ALWAYS sailing upwind, regardless of True Wind Angle. And...the suckers are doing 30 kts in maybe 11 kts of wind.
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Old 06-22-17, 08:56 PM
  #60  
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Wow, that is fascinating in its unintuitiveness.

Originally Posted by CliffordK View Post
That is what one would think, but apparently not quite true.

It would be true with a spinnaker sail. But, the direct downwind cars are being driven by a propeller. But, rather than having the wind turn the propeller, the wheels turn the propeller which blows wind out the back. So, the faster the vehicle moves forward, the faster the propeller turns, and the more wind it blows against the blowing wind from the rear.

Or, perhaps one would say the greater the pressure differential between front and rear.

Here is a good explanation.
https://www.wired.com/2010/06/downwi...than-the-wind/

Apparently they have built upwind vehicles using the opposite principle.
https://www.wired.com/2012/07/wind-powered-car-upwind/
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Old 06-23-17, 11:21 AM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Mars View Post
I sail. You can defineitely go much faster than the wind. Ice boats (on blades like skates) can go over 100 mph. One of the problems to overcome with a sailbike would be the heeling induced by the sail. Think of how those boats are leaned way over in the wind. A thought I had is a sail on a skateboard, sort of like a land windsurfer...

I've used a sail on a skateboard when I was younger. two pieces of emt bolted together at one end, with a sheet sewn between them. it was fun, especially just before a storm. it finally dawned on me though, that holding two metal poles with a storm rolling in wasn't one of my brightest ideas. haven't done it since.
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Old 08-05-17, 07:44 PM
  #62  
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Lol a sail bike?? Sounds like a horrible idea unless you are out in the middle of the desert with no cars around to dodge.
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Old 08-11-17, 12:37 PM
  #63  
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desert fun!
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Old 08-23-17, 01:35 PM
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That Whike is awesome! Quite the sail, as well.
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Old 10-26-17, 03:26 PM
  #65  
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That's really interesting, hope it works out
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Old 10-27-17, 11:02 AM
  #66  
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There are Trikes that have a Mast & sail, Like Ice Boats, but wheels rather than ice skate like blades.

they are long , wide wheel base, but still can be blown over by the wind.
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Old 03-23-18, 02:14 AM
  #67  
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I typed "bicycle sail" in the search box on YouTube and there's quite a few vids on bikes with sails.
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Old 03-28-18, 01:32 PM
  #68  
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Sailing and two wheels will NOT go together.

Land yachts are cool as ice, but they will not do well on public roads, and may actually pose a hazard to yourself and others.

Sail safely and sail cool.
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Old 03-28-18, 01:59 PM
  #69  
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Originally Posted by MacG View Post
The only way to sail a bike faster than the wind is to have a wide vehicle that can resist a serious tipping power.

A run, when the wind is at your back, allows you to approach the speed of the wind and applies little to no tipping force to the craft.

When the sail is hauled in and the craft turned to cross the wind, then the speed picks up. I think the optimum angle (for a boat) is about 30 degrees off of the wind on either side. The elusive component that allows a sailboar to move forwards and not just blow sideways is the keel or board. The boat has what is literally a wing flying through the water underneath it. The propulsion (other than on a run, when you have a floating parachute) is caused by the fighting of the wing under the water against the wing in the air (the sail).

If you had a wide trike, you could probably sail crosswind. The keel's job would be provided by the wheels (preventing the sideways motion of the craft) and as long as the rig was wide enough to be stable, you could probably get some speed up.

The biggest problem is that you are heavily limited by the direction of the wind, so you would probably only be able to sail in a large open area, like the salt flats or a big sports field. I don't think that a sail would be able to provide any advantages or even be very feasable in town or on trails, unfortunately.

That said, I'll put in a six pack to the first person to create a sailbike capable of traveling crosswind at speeds greater than the measured wind (without pedal/motor assistance, naturally). Gentlemen (and ladies); start your welders!
"Tipping power" is easy to achieve on a bike. You just lean the bike into the wind. Anytime you ride in a crosswind, you are doing it without even thinking. Look up "skate sailing". That is exactly what they do, on ice skates instead of wheels.

A well rigged bike should be able to hit speeds far greater than wind speed on sail power alone. Skate sail like speeds shouldn't be a challenge. (We never recorded wind speeds but I have done over 40 - half again what the fastest kid in a pickup hockey game could do - and my dad was clocked once at 60 on police radar.) Good ice boats go 3X wind speed and I think 5X would be achievable with a full wing sail and complete fairing.
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Old 09-08-18, 08:55 AM
  #70  
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Yes you can

I built a skateboard wind surfer. Took it to Jack Murphy Stadium parking lot. Lots of fun. Ice boats were the fastest thing before airplanes. In the desert they run trikes on dry lake beds. It has all been done. Bike might work but not as good as a trike. You must balance the load.

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Old 07-01-19, 07:25 PM
  #71  
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A tip-able rig like on a sail board would help steer.
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