DA12 coming some details
11-20-20, 05:36 PM
#26
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Frankly, I don't really buy the notion that it's an "industry forced change." I mean, it may eventually be that for some, but it's not the case right now and I don't buy it for the market as a whole. It wasn't like BOOM - rim brakes are gone and discs are all you can get.
It's probably safe assume that bike companies are still trying to sell as many bikes as they can and, if they noticed an unmet demand for rim brake models, they'd step it up. Disc brake models were slowly rolled out over the course of years and, if buyer were tepid about adopting discs, I think that would have been reflected in stock manufactured the following years. As it is, we seem to get more disc options every year and fewer rim options every year; That leads me to assume that the market as a whole has embraced discs or, at the very least, they're in no way a deal-breaker. Anecdotally, of the people that I ride with, all but two or three have already gone disc and wouldn't go back to rim. Of those that haven't transitioned, well, they just haven't bought anything recently; none has cited discs as a reason for holding out nor have they purchased a new bike with rim brakes.
It's probably safe assume that bike companies are still trying to sell as many bikes as they can and, if they noticed an unmet demand for rim brake models, they'd step it up. Disc brake models were slowly rolled out over the course of years and, if buyer were tepid about adopting discs, I think that would have been reflected in stock manufactured the following years. As it is, we seem to get more disc options every year and fewer rim options every year; That leads me to assume that the market as a whole has embraced discs or, at the very least, they're in no way a deal-breaker. Anecdotally, of the people that I ride with, all but two or three have already gone disc and wouldn't go back to rim. Of those that haven't transitioned, well, they just haven't bought anything recently; none has cited discs as a reason for holding out nor have they purchased a new bike with rim brakes.
11-29-20, 06:45 AM
#29
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You don't believe that the market wanted disc brakes, but I look at it from the other direction - it's pretty obvious that the market isn't wedded to rims. Whether that was because of a want for discs or because of an indifference, I don't know... but I don't know that it matters.
While I don't presume to speak for the market, or even the majority of it, I certainly wanted discs. After I got the gravel bike (with discs, obv) it was a done deal - I put road tires/wheels on it and my rim brake bike didn't see the pavement again until it was being test ridden by a prospective Craigslist buyer a year and a half later. The two bikes purchased since have been disc - I wouldn't consider otherwise. And yeah, it's hearsay, but I've heard similar stories quite a lot.
Oh, and discs are totally not hard to work on. On the whole, they need much less intervention than rim.
While I don't presume to speak for the market, or even the majority of it, I certainly wanted discs. After I got the gravel bike (with discs, obv) it was a done deal - I put road tires/wheels on it and my rim brake bike didn't see the pavement again until it was being test ridden by a prospective Craigslist buyer a year and a half later. The two bikes purchased since have been disc - I wouldn't consider otherwise. And yeah, it's hearsay, but I've heard similar stories quite a lot.
Oh, and discs are totally not hard to work on. On the whole, they need much less intervention than rim.
12 speed allows for closer ratios
Wireless eliminates exposed wires.
Progress is not bad why do we want to fight it?
11-29-20, 07:05 AM
#30
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12 speed allows closer ratios, but in practice (Campy) only adds further low gears and no tighter spacing whatsoever.
Wireless is often unreliable, as has proven to be the case with SRAM.
You must have seen these before, of course, and just decided to ignore what people's concerns are.
11-29-20, 09:00 AM
#31
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Seldom mentioned is the fact that Campy and SRAM 12 sprocket spacing is nearly identical - even closer than the 11 speed models. I put a sram 10-36 my Campy 12 bike and it worked great. Sram offers a tightly spaced 10-26, but the 10T sprocket only makes sense with a campy 48/32 crank, like I had then. It has been speculated that a sprocket smaller than a 29 might hit the spokes with Campy 12. Regardless, there will probably not be a 12 speed Campy cassette with a 27. Campy's new freehub body and Ekar 13 speed pave the way for Campy 12 cassettes starting with a 10T sprocket.
Flat land riders really don't need 12 speed, but if the Campy 11-29 isn't suitable, an XDR freehub body can be installed on any Campy/Fulcrum wheel, allowing the use of sram 12 cassettes.
I recently took the plunge into disc brakes and sold all of my rim brake frames and equipment, mainly due to the fact that many frames are no longer made in a rim brake model. Discs don't really offer any advantage to a lightweight rider who never rides in wet. Even with 200 gram lighter frames, my disc bikes are heavier. The equivalent wheels are about 100 grams heavier and the rotors add another 200-250 grams. I'm also trying 28mm tubeless tires to lower the risk of pinch flats.
Flat land riders really don't need 12 speed, but if the Campy 11-29 isn't suitable, an XDR freehub body can be installed on any Campy/Fulcrum wheel, allowing the use of sram 12 cassettes.
I recently took the plunge into disc brakes and sold all of my rim brake frames and equipment, mainly due to the fact that many frames are no longer made in a rim brake model. Discs don't really offer any advantage to a lightweight rider who never rides in wet. Even with 200 gram lighter frames, my disc bikes are heavier. The equivalent wheels are about 100 grams heavier and the rotors add another 200-250 grams. I'm also trying 28mm tubeless tires to lower the risk of pinch flats.
Last edited by DaveSSS; 11-29-20 at 09:22 AM.
11-29-20, 09:16 AM
#32
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So to claim intercompatibility with this setup you are saying that a Campy 12s RD works with a 10-36 cassette?
11-29-20, 10:41 AM
#33
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I've also done the opposite and used my Campy 11-34 with my Force AXS drivetrain.
11-29-20, 10:54 AM
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It's the same story with Ekar - you get 13 speeds, but super wide gearing. Come to think of it, wasn't it you who came back to me with "well they have a 9-36" when I said I wished Ekar had a 10-36 which would be usable?
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11-29-20, 11:28 AM
#35
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Comparing the gravel specific Ekar 13 speed 1X group to any road bike group is apples and oranges. The cassettes that start with a 9T or 10T have to be paired with an appropriately sized single chainring. If you ride flat land gravel, then 12 speed 1X should be adequate. SRAM offers 1X 12 speed with closely spaced cassettes.
11-29-20, 11:54 AM
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The 1x faithful would have you believe that 1x13 is ideal for road, so I'm not sure what's inherently "gravel-specific" about Ekar other than the ratios they chose. Further, the trend since 11-speed has been to widen the ratios while adding speeds, and Ekar is just a continuation of that into 13s. But uh, yay I guess! Is this what progress feels like?
Maybe Edco will make a decent cassette eventually.
Maybe Edco will make a decent cassette eventually.
11-29-20, 01:41 PM
#37
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That's relevant if you were already using those cassettes, I suppose. To those of us who were already using 11-28 and mildly annoyed at the loss of the 12-27, it's not closer. Like literally at all. I get more range that I don't want. And I'll have to spring for a DA cassette for another $100 over the Ultegra cassette I've been using. The 11-32 and 11-34 can DIAF.
It's the same story with Ekar - you get 13 speeds, but super wide gearing. Come to think of it, wasn't it you who came back to me with "well they have a 9-36" when I said I wished Ekar had a 10-36 which would be usable?
It's the same story with Ekar - you get 13 speeds, but super wide gearing. Come to think of it, wasn't it you who came back to me with "well they have a 9-36" when I said I wished Ekar had a 10-36 which would be usable?
The 11-29 offers one lower gear, and puts a 16t cog in there as well, that the 11-28 doesn't have, so yes I'd argue this is tighter spacing as well where most folks would be looking for it.
Mind you, not enough benefit to me to 'upgrade' from 11s for any of these changes, especially with the ridiculous prices that even the Chorus cassettes are going for right now -- ie. 3-4x the price of an 11s Centaur or 2-3x the price of 11s Chorus or Potenza.
11-29-20, 01:56 PM
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That's relevant if you were already using those cassettes, I suppose. To those of us who were already using 11-28 and mildly annoyed at the loss of the 12-27, it's not closer. Like literally at all. I get more range that I don't want. And I'll have to spring for a DA cassette for another $100 over the Ultegra cassette I've been using. The 11-32 and 11-34 can DIAF.
It's the same story with Ekar - you get 13 speeds, but super wide gearing. Come to think of it, wasn't it you who came back to me with "well they have a 9-36" when I said I wished Ekar had a 10-36 which would be usable?
It's the same story with Ekar - you get 13 speeds, but super wide gearing. Come to think of it, wasn't it you who came back to me with "well they have a 9-36" when I said I wished Ekar had a 10-36 which would be usable?
11-29-20, 02:14 PM
#39
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Campy thinks that Ekar is gravel specific. https://www.campagnolo.com/US/en/Mec...s/ekar/gravel2
If you're not riding in the rough, where the 1X avoids chain drops, it makes no sense to me. My 46/30 with a 10-36 has a 557% range. Ekar has far less range and a lowest gear of 38/44.
If Campy ever offers a 12 speed cassette with a 10T first sprocket, then it should be like an Ekar 9-36 without the 9, which would be 10-11-12-13-14-16-18-20-23-27-31-36. That's better spacing than my SRAM 10-36 that has 10-11-12-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36. You get one more 1T shift.
If you're not riding in the rough, where the 1X avoids chain drops, it makes no sense to me. My 46/30 with a 10-36 has a 557% range. Ekar has far less range and a lowest gear of 38/44.
If Campy ever offers a 12 speed cassette with a 10T first sprocket, then it should be like an Ekar 9-36 without the 9, which would be 10-11-12-13-14-16-18-20-23-27-31-36. That's better spacing than my SRAM 10-36 that has 10-11-12-13-15-17-19-21-24-28-32-36. You get one more 1T shift.
11-29-20, 02:29 PM
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I get it.. you wants what you want. Nothing wrong with that, but the relevancy is that compared to any stock mainstream bike out there (eg Defy, TCR, Tarmac, Roubaix, Cervelo R, Domane, Emonda, SuperSix, etc), an 11-32 12s with a 16t cog offers more range than the shimano 11-30 found on most stock lightweight/race bikes, and with the preponderance of shimano endurance bikes that now all come with 11-32 or 11-34, the 12s cassettes of the same range are of course tighter.
The 11-29 offers one lower gear, and puts a 16t cog in there as well, that the 11-28 doesn't have, so yes I'd argue this is tighter spacing as well where most folks would be looking for it.
Mind you, not enough benefit to me to 'upgrade' from 11s for any of these changes, especially with the ridiculous prices that even the Chorus cassettes are going for right now -- ie. 3-4x the price of an 11s Centaur or 2-3x the price of 11s Chorus or Potenza.
The 11-29 offers one lower gear, and puts a 16t cog in there as well, that the 11-28 doesn't have, so yes I'd argue this is tighter spacing as well where most folks would be looking for it.
Mind you, not enough benefit to me to 'upgrade' from 11s for any of these changes, especially with the ridiculous prices that even the Chorus cassettes are going for right now -- ie. 3-4x the price of an 11s Centaur or 2-3x the price of 11s Chorus or Potenza.
And its not even just "I wants what I want" (though there is of course that) - I'd like the "progress" I'm charged so much for to be immediate WOW upgrades. Di2 on my tri bike was like that - shifting from the brake levers and nearly-zero pressure even when shifting from the extensions made it much easier to ride that bike. Should have done that the first time I tried one. Ditto for the Varia as mentioned in that other thread - first ride was an immediate understanding of how awesome it was. By contrast, paying a large pile more for some of these things that feel a lot more like laterals is frustrating. Especially when it appears to be what the whole industry is devoting their development to.
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11-29-20, 02:31 PM
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If my rides looked like yours I'd probably already be 1x for everything.
11-29-20, 02:36 PM
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I could probably get away without the 27, but we do have steep hills here. It's all the hill country for a reason; we don't have long steep Alpine slogs that need the big cogs, but there are some lumps that you feel.
If my rides looked like yours I'd probably already be 1x for everything.
If my rides looked like yours I'd probably already be 1x for everything.
11-29-20, 02:52 PM
#43
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I thought it was still less per mile than mine, usually. Either way, the 11-28 lets me stay out of the little ring most of the time. I suppose I could probably run 1x 8100 with the 11-32 on the De Salvo and wind up ok, since it seems I'll get a gravel bike sooner. Something to ponder.
11-29-20, 02:58 PM
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I thought it was still less per mile than mine, usually. Either way, the 11-28 lets me stay out of the little ring most of the time. I suppose I could probably run 1x 8100 with the 11-32 on the De Salvo and wind up ok, since it seems I'll get a gravel bike sooner. Something to ponder.
11-29-20, 10:02 PM
#45
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The real question is how many cogs will it have?
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11-29-20, 10:27 PM
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How much of a premium would people pay for a cassette that can be disassembled and the individual gears be swapped out/replaced? You could do it back in the freewheel era.
11-30-20, 09:27 AM
#47
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I think an extremely small % of cyclists would want to pick out their cassette spacing. The vast majority dont nerd out.
As for how much of a premium i would spend- i would pay $10 more to get a 105 or equal quality cassette in the gear ratio i want.
With how and where i ride, if I cant find a comfortable gear with 22 of them at my disposal, I can wait 20 seconds and a slight incline, decline, or wind change will affect my riding enough that I'll suddenly be able to find a good gear to use...until it changes again shortly up the road.
I dont ride in a competitive pace line though.
11-30-20, 09:47 AM
#48
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Im not too sure how much weight is actually always saved though. The wheel is lighter, but then the rotor is attached and weight goes up. And many carbon wheelsets don't seem to be all that much lighter. Its often a matter of paying $600 more than a quality aluminum rim brake wheelset and saving 100g. The rim shape is different though and that carbon aero shape will save you seconds, so thats often the better way to market.
12 speed does allow for closer ratios. This actually matters to very few in cycling. And it matters to very few enthusiast cyclists too. Its good to have as a product though since it will benefit some and others will want it just to have the newest, even if they don't benefit from the change.
Yes, wireless eliminates exposed wires. I have never been bothered by wires on my bikes. im not saying a wireless bike is lame- I actually think it'd be super neat. But wires are just not something I think of when riding. At all. Ever.
Progress isn't bad. Its debatable that what you describe is progress though. Its certainly change, but does it significantly increase the riding experience enough to claim its progress?
eh...
11-30-20, 11:31 AM
#49
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For the very few in cycling that buy carbon rims(seriously, its an absurdly small % of total cyclists or even of enthusiast cyclists), not having to deal with rim brakes is probably nice.
Im not too sure how much weight is actually always saved though. The wheel is lighter, but then the rotor is attached and weight goes up. And many carbon wheelsets don't seem to be all that much lighter. Its often a matter of paying $600 more than a quality aluminum rim brake wheelset and saving 100g. The rim shape is different though and that carbon aero shape will save you seconds, so thats often the better way to market.
12 speed does allow for closer ratios. This actually matters to very few in cycling. And it matters to very few enthusiast cyclists too. Its good to have as a product though since it will benefit some and others will want it just to have the newest, even if they don't benefit from the change.
Yes, wireless eliminates exposed wires. I have never been bothered by wires on my bikes. im not saying a wireless bike is lame- I actually think it'd be super neat. But wires are just not something I think of when riding. At all. Ever.
Progress isn't bad. Its debatable that what you describe is progress though. Its certainly change, but does it significantly increase the riding experience enough to claim its progress?
eh...
Im not too sure how much weight is actually always saved though. The wheel is lighter, but then the rotor is attached and weight goes up. And many carbon wheelsets don't seem to be all that much lighter. Its often a matter of paying $600 more than a quality aluminum rim brake wheelset and saving 100g. The rim shape is different though and that carbon aero shape will save you seconds, so thats often the better way to market.
12 speed does allow for closer ratios. This actually matters to very few in cycling. And it matters to very few enthusiast cyclists too. Its good to have as a product though since it will benefit some and others will want it just to have the newest, even if they don't benefit from the change.
Yes, wireless eliminates exposed wires. I have never been bothered by wires on my bikes. im not saying a wireless bike is lame- I actually think it'd be super neat. But wires are just not something I think of when riding. At all. Ever.
Progress isn't bad. Its debatable that what you describe is progress though. Its certainly change, but does it significantly increase the riding experience enough to claim its progress?
eh...
As for 12 speed, yeah, it'd be nice, but I wouldn't replace a perfectly good groupset (or bike) just to get it. My old 9 speed bike still gets regular use, and I live in a very hilly area. And I regularly get my ass handed to me by riders on SS bikes, so having a whole bunch of gears is a bit overrated.
And yeah, electronic shifting is nice, and it makes for a prettier bike. But (and I'm an outlier here, apparently) I don't think my Di2 bike shifts any better than my mechanical Shimano bikes. It does offer some nice capabilities, but nothing essential.
11-30-20, 10:58 PM
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@Koyote I think most Di2 owners will agree with you that an electronic groupset doesn't shift any or at least much better than a perfectly tuned mech group. People buy it for a lot of other reasons like no maintenance ever, being able to shift from anywhere, reassign the buttons to your liking, display what gear you're in, have data on how much time and power you spend on each gear combination, and also consistently excellent shifting every time over the life of the groupset.
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