mlau

Thor is a great guy.

I doubt you'll find cheaper...if you consider service and honesty into the equation.

washuai

Thor already recommended they get the Mu D10 (per the post). You're going to want that rack and fenders (You're touring and you want to haul stuff and stay cleaner, right?), so you're not really saving anything with a Vigor P9.
One isn't clearly lighter with the same or higher load weight limit.
I know it costs more (and weighs more, because of the suspension), but it is interesting he didn't suggest the Jetstream P8, since it looks like he sells it. I wonder if that was because it costs more, the weight or some other reason. It'll cost & weigh even more once you've tossed a rack and fenders on there.
On trips, the lighter bike, as long as it isn't too light for the load, wins.
The jetstream has the Marathons with kevlar, vs dahon tires on the Vigor vs Mu D10 CST . I'd say you probably would want to swap the tires out for your trip with the Vigor or Mu D10 CST Vault 20 x 1.95 . Or if not swap, possibly definitely carry a spare that is a little more occasional dirt friendly with extra puncture protection. With the jetstream, you could wait until you got home if you wanted a less road tire or visit a LBS on your trip.
I've seen pictures and heard tales of people hauling trailers of stuff through the snow off road with a jetstream and other people's light single track rides (not talking intermediate to crazy mtb tech \ downhill).
The expert advice (and set up) of Thor or your LBS is worth paying for, if you're not as experienced. Along with the support they might still provide if needed, while on your trip.

m56ewt

Good points. We did receive the the first Mu D10 today and all is good. The price was $717 after tax. Wife has not tried yet, but if she likes it, we will either get a second Mu D10 or the Vigor P9 from Thor. I like the look of the Vigor much better and the wife doesn't really care that much. If they are comparable, it would sway me to the Vigor. I have never had a fenders or a rack for that matter and really don't care that much about them now. After riding the Mu D10, I am very impressed with how much it feels like a regular bike.

berlinonaut

Just had a look at the Dahon webpage and it seems it has not become better. Of the three bikes you mention it seems none is listed on the Dahon USA webpage. There is a Mu D9 and a Mu Ex along with a Mu Lx but no Mu D10 (tour or not). There's not a single Vigor. But there's a Curl i8. Dahon USA do have a "super sale"-page which lists some models that are not on the "bikes" page, while some are. On the super-sale page there is the Mu D9 as well as the Mu D10 Tour and the Vigor D9 - the Vigor P9 is still missing. Also there is a Curl i3 and a Curl i8 anniversary.

On the Dahon Global webpage there are a Vigor D9 and a Mu D9 and Lx, but none of the other models. There is a Curl i4, but no Curl i8. The Curl i8 is only listed in the bike archive, along with the Curl i4 which at the same time is listed as a current model. This kind of stuff leaves me with a question mark - it creates the impression that Dahon themselves either do not know what they are selling or do not care to provide this information to their customers. Maybe they got lost in their complex lineup, given that this situation is going on for years now. Which does not create too much trust in the company with me, especially regarding the service and providing of spare-parts, the more in a couple of years from now for bikes that you buy today.

FolderBeholder

In the US you cant actually order from that website....it refers you to a Dahon dealer (which is fine, dealers are an integral part of commerce. Or have been) but the point is, there is no credibility between what you see, and what you can get. Its very confusing and product selection via the Manufacturer’s own website becomes a very cumbersome and inaccurate time-spend.

berlinonaut

Hm, I can. I can put a bike into a shopping cart on this webpage and get forwarded to Paypal directly after that. I would call this an order. In the lower left part of the Dahon-webpage for each country you see who is responsible for that country-page. For the Dahon USA-page this is:

DAHON North America, Inc.
3550 N Union Drive
Olney, IL 62450, U.S.A.


If you choose i.e. Germany as a country on dahon.com you get forwarded directly to BBF Bike GmbH who are probably the current distributor for Dahon in Germany (the German distributor has changed a couple of times over the last years and it seems that currently it is BBF. Not too long ago, when the Curl was finally launched there was a German Dahon subsidiary, strangely at the same address as another big distribution company at the opposite side of Germany. Possibly these changes in distribution happened for a reason...)

This is exactly my opinion. A bike that is sold by the official distribution in one country but does not exist in the lineup. Another bike that is in the official lineup in one country but labeled archived/discontinued on the global page. Bikes that exist on neither pages. It is a total mess and it has been like that for ages with Dahon. For the US this seems especially bizarre as Dahon call themselves a US-based company and have an official headquarter in the US that also operates their USA web-page.

FolderBeholder

Dahon still has offices in Duarte Calif. formerly their HQ I believe, which is only about 40 miles from where I live. When I was shopping for a Dahon bike, I spoke with the person there (Monty?) who informed me 1) they dont sell directly 2) if you “purchase” a bike from their online store, its actually transacted through a LBS, not through Dahon USA. 3) Not everything you see on the Dahon USA website is available for purchase...anywhere 4)they don’t welcome looky-lous at their Duarte Ca office.

Needless to say, since I have no pre-conceived affection for Dahon bikes over other well known brands, I was put-off by their stand-offish sales approach.

I ended up with a Brompton S6L.

Lalato

FYI... that's the address of ThorUSA. Basically, it's just sending the order to Thor.

linberl

Many large retail businesses use distributors and regional or local sales groups to move their product. I wouldn't go on the Toyota or Chevy or BMW websites to order a car; I would order through an intermediary. Thor lists all the available USA models on his website and is very responsive if one has any questions. I've even seen him take on warranty issues for folks who didn't actually buy from him (past threads here). There's no doubt the best customer service is going to happen if you either buy a bike made in the country where you live so you have some immediacy, or you buy from a dealer who actually respects the customer and handles the interface between customer and manufacturer. If I bought a Brompton, I would not order directly from Brompton -- I'd order from Blue Heron bikes which is less than a mile from me. They'd handle any issues with Brompton as a company. The only time to order directly is if the company doesn't have any sales distributors (even BF now is developing them) and then you take some chances. Dahon's website is a pita but that has nothing to do with the quality of the bikes - it's more to do with their lack of interest in clear direct commerce.

berlinonaut

At least I have no interest of ordering a bike from the manufacturer directly. But I would expect the manufacturer to list the available models on their webpage and - if those differ from country to country - to have a country webpage that list the models. I'd assume this is the case with BMW, Toyota and Chevy. Dahon, being the biggest manufacturer of folding bikes on the planet, falls very short here. What would you think if the official BMW America Inc. would have a shop selling other brands as well and would sell you let's say a BMW 512i that does not officially exist? Or a 535i that is not shown in their current lineup but in the historic models? Wouldn't you scratch your head?

I personally do draw conclusions from the way a company communicates it's products as it reflects their attitude. With Brompton one could literally follow the change in attitude, business sense and behaviour along with the changes of their webpage over the last 10 years. With Dahon I get the impression of a company that is not really knowledgable or interested in what they do productvise or in customer satisfaction, not too much interested in quality, enhancement or attention to detail and not interested in sustainability or long-term customer connection. They are interested in short term huge sales numbers and huge revenue, everything else stands way back. That does not mean the bikes would be bad, but it means they are probably by far not as good as they could (and maybe should) be and that their attitude (which is also perfectly reflected by the spare parts situation) does not at all fit mine. Strange coincidence that I do not own a Dahon.

linberl

I guess you give more importance to websites than I. There are many websites for bikes out there that are beautiful, well designed and structured. And the company is a fly-by-night, low quality bike. Web design is relatively cheap. Dahon has been around a very long time, their bikes are on the road after decades of use. Comparing Bromptons to Dahons is an unfair comparison - the prices are not even close in equivalence. I would not expect the same level of attention to detail, etc., in a $700 bike that I do in a $2000 bike. Would you expect a Toyota to be at the same level as a BMW? Surprisingly, though, my Dahon Mu Uno is extremely well made and appointed. Quality I did not expect in a Dahon, if I am being honest. Dahon, btw, is only 6 years younger than Brompton, so that's some pretty good longevity imo. Yes, their website sucks, but their bikes are very good FOR THE PRICE.

berlinonaut

Possibly you are right in that aspect.

That's true. It does not work that way 'round and it is not about beautiful, fancy web design. It's about the content: What's there, how is it structured, stuff like that. Surely the webpage is - by far - not the only source to judge from but an important one in our days.

Depends from how you define quality. I.e. here in Germany a taxi was for ages basically a synonyme for Mercedes. More or less since world war 2. De facto Mercedes had a monopoly on taxis, just that it was a monopoly based on free choice of the taxi drivers as they were simply the best in quality and endurance. Today there are still a lot of Mercedes Taxis out there (maybe around 50%) but about a third are Toyota Prius, at least here in Berlin. And the numbers are rising. Why? Because they provide the best value for money. They need very little maintenance, have very good fuel economy, are way cheaper than any Merc. They are less luxorious and feel cheaper, too. From a passenger's perspective as well as possibly from a driver's perspective. So how could that happen then? Mercedes lost it's focus on best possible quality to a degree which resulted in angry taxi drivers. Toyota convinced a couple of drivers and they made good experiences with the hybrid cars, surprisingly the fancy technology turned out to be lasting. And so, by recommendation they slowly started to take over. The question is: Is a Toyota Prius of better quality than Mercedes E class? Possibly not in many aspects, but definitively yes in some aspects. You buy a Toyota because it does not brake down. You do not buy a Toyota because it is beautiful, luxuious or has the shiniest surfaces on the interior. So what's quality?

linberl

Prius replacing Mercedes is probably more about the price of gas than anything else. It's value rather than quality. But we are getting way far away from the OP's original thread, lolz.

berlinonaut

Not really: The Mercs run on diesel, the Toyota hybrids on gas. The Mercs take 8-9 liters per 100 km in taxi mode, the Toyotas 7ish. With German prices for gas and diesel fuel economy is about the same.


Here we go. And we may be onto something that is closer to the OP's question than one might think. The OP wants a folder to tour within his holiday in Europe and to use afterwards, possibly to replace his hybrid bike. And he has a maximum budget to spend which is more than the bare minimum. So he has needs (that we tried to find out in this thread), he has desires (less important than the needs, but maybe still essential). Both need to be fulfilled in the best possible way. Unfortunately some are not possible together. So he has to prioritze and once he has done that he faces a two-legged question: What exactly is neccessary? And: How much risk am I willing to take? Which translates to: Am I willing to buy better quality than I may need just because I like quality or maybe to be better set against unforeseen issues? Qualtiywise, if we are honest, not much is needed. People have been touring for decades with worse material than any bike today and they not only survived it but had a great trip. At least most of them. There is a book by an Englishman named Tim Moore called "The cyclist who went out in the cold". He desribes his bike trip along the former iron curtain, starting in Finnland and ending at the South end of the Balkan, 1000s of kilometers. The bike he used was a folder. A folder that was made in the former communist German Damocratic Republic as a counterfeit of the horrible folders of the 70ies. You can imagine the quality of that bike in comparison to a modern Bike Friday, a Dahon or a Brompton. He made it. A highly recommended read, so I won't tell more.

So the problem of the OP is a bit of a luxury problem (which is good to have). And so he possibly can barely go totally wrong, making his choice an epic fail. After some time he will probably recognize that he would judge differently now on some aspects of his selection, maybe leading to a different choice if he had to choose again and maybe not. But there's no real risk involved: He can still sell what he has bought and buy something different. Worst thing to happen is loosing a handful of dollars. The judgement which bike to choose is not that different from Merc vs. Toyota: Do I want the best value for money? Do I want the best quality (and how do I define quality)? Am I willing to pay for more than what I really need? And what do I assume will I need? The good thing is that he can afford either choice and as he seems to finally have made his choice we are possibly free to discuss the more philosophical aspects of the topic.

Schwinnsta

Dahon has models that sell for at least as much as Brompton. They are well equipt. They also sell lower tier stuff. Information should be accurate. Brompton site has problems too.

Duragrouch

I'll confirm everything said above:

• Dahon USA's website is frustrating, determining what you can actually buy in the US.
• One local Dahon dealer had a model on their website (18 speeds, disc brakes) that Dahon hadn't sold in 4 years, just as a bait-and-switch.
• Dahon's USA's customer support is awful.
• Thor is awesome, as people have said, he not only stands behind the stuff he sells, but will try to resolve warranty issues that Dahon USA ignores (and Dahon's dealer local to me as well). I don't know if he is just that nice, or trying to preserve brand reputation for Dahon, and thus his own sales. Either way, any future new purchases, I'm biased toward Thor Bikes.
• Even Thor can't solve a problem if a part is defective, and the replacement part is also defective. This is especially frustrating for parts that are unique to Dahon. I have one Dahon sitting idle for two years, while I figure out where I can get the replacement part re-machined for it to fit properly.

m56ewt

Love your post berlinonaut. Thank you very much for your input. I actually agree with you. With all the reviews that I have read and watched and riding about 20 miles today on my Trek 7.5FX while my wife was on her Dahon Mu D10 Tour we learned she was able to keep up with me without any problem. We loved the convenience of being able to fold it up and take it with us and throw right into the trunk when we were done.

My only issue that I have is I can't seem to get over the ugly color that the Mu D10 Tour comes in and I just can't seem to locate the brushed silver Mu D10. I believe I have decided to take my chances with the Dahon Vigor P9, but I am running into a couple issues. I can't seem to figure out the difference between the D9 and the P9. Thor had the model listed as a D9, but when you click on it, it shows as a P9. Some online reviews and pics show it with adjustable handlebars and some without (I believe they are not adjustable, but have a more upright positioning.) I really don't think you can go wrong with any of the Dahon models I have been looking at. The long term goal is to have our bikes in a campsite and not have to worry about the terrain we are on.

rhenning

I think you need to be communicating with Thor so you get the correct answers. The rest of us are just guessing. Roger

m56ewt

That is the plan. I actually called yesterday as I am ready to order it and I believe I spoke to him, but he said it’s a holiday and nobody was there. He very nicely asked me to call back today. Will probably order at some point today.