Eletrolisis on Brompton Frame to remove rust
05-30-19, 06:23 PM
#1
Stardust
Thread Starter
Eletrolisis on Brompton Frame to remove rust
hey there
i was thinking a way to remove the rust burried inside brompton frame.
does eletrolisis would work? i just need a bathtube, water, salt and dissassamble the whole thing?
i was thinking a way to remove the rust burried inside brompton frame.
does eletrolisis would work? i just need a bathtube, water, salt and dissassamble the whole thing?
05-31-19, 02:40 AM
#2
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ooh!
now you're asking!
Yes- I think that would have an effect; if you can get the right conditions; but 'i think' electrolysis is a process normally associated with plating; you might be best to still try some mechanical 'agitation' first.
Plus you need a power source; to have something to get the charged particles flowing round. You need a donor electrode, don't you..? Then the metal moves from one part to the other..?
now you're asking!
Yes- I think that would have an effect; if you can get the right conditions; but 'i think' electrolysis is a process normally associated with plating; you might be best to still try some mechanical 'agitation' first.
Plus you need a power source; to have something to get the charged particles flowing round. You need a donor electrode, don't you..? Then the metal moves from one part to the other..?
05-31-19, 04:10 AM
#3
Stardust
Thread Starter
hey, thanks for reply!
i already did some of it here with minor hardware like knifes, etc..
just need a donnor metal scrap to be killed than zing! the rust floats from negative(your hardware) to positive(metal scrap).
i did with notebook charger as power source
the brompton frame scale would be an giant process, mutch more water, energy and financial damage if something goes wrong!
im just afraid it kills the frame somehow.
i already did some of it here with minor hardware like knifes, etc..
just need a donnor metal scrap to be killed than zing! the rust floats from negative(your hardware) to positive(metal scrap).
i did with notebook charger as power source
the brompton frame scale would be an giant process, mutch more water, energy and financial damage if something goes wrong!
im just afraid it kills the frame somehow.
Last edited by BromptonINrio; 05-31-19 at 04:15 AM.
05-31-19, 08:40 AM
#4
Senior Member
Most on the Classic and Vintage forum would suggest oxalis acid bath instead. Does not affect paint or decals but only steel should be put in the tub.
05-31-19, 08:58 AM
#5
Palmer
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Brompton has a 40+ year commitment to HiTen steel for their frames.
Bromptons are relatively expensive bikes.
Brompton advertises 'handmade with high build quality'.
Bromptons are sold and exported to various climates around the world.
Brompton has a big, new factory building with extra space.
There is a myriad of processes to keep steel from rusting, well known with long histories and proven in industry.
but
Some Brompton owners complain of frame (and fastener) rust.
I don't want to tell Mr. Will Butler-Adams, CEO, MD, OBE, FRGS how to run his business, but this issue seems eminently solvable & a worthwhile improvement in his product.
Bromptons are relatively expensive bikes.
Brompton advertises 'handmade with high build quality'.
Bromptons are sold and exported to various climates around the world.
Brompton has a big, new factory building with extra space.
There is a myriad of processes to keep steel from rusting, well known with long histories and proven in industry.
but
Some Brompton owners complain of frame (and fastener) rust.
I don't want to tell Mr. Will Butler-Adams, CEO, MD, OBE, FRGS how to run his business, but this issue seems eminently solvable & a worthwhile improvement in his product.
05-31-19, 11:46 AM
#6
Senior Member
Brompton has a 40+ year commitment to HiTen steel for their frames.
Bromptons are relatively expensive bikes.
Brompton advertises 'handmade with high build quality'.
Bromptons are sold and exported to various climates around the world.
Brompton has a big, new factory building with extra space.
There is a myriad of processes to keep steel from rusting, well known with long histories and proven in industry.
but
Some Brompton owners complain of frame (and fastener) rust.
I don't want to tell Mr. Will Butler-Adams, CEO, MD, OBE, FRGS how to run his business, but this issue seems eminently solvable & a worthwhile improvement in his product.
Bromptons are relatively expensive bikes.
Brompton advertises 'handmade with high build quality'.
Bromptons are sold and exported to various climates around the world.
Brompton has a big, new factory building with extra space.
There is a myriad of processes to keep steel from rusting, well known with long histories and proven in industry.
but
Some Brompton owners complain of frame (and fastener) rust.
I don't want to tell Mr. Will Butler-Adams, CEO, MD, OBE, FRGS how to run his business, but this issue seems eminently solvable & a worthwhile improvement in his product.
Do you have a Brompton? Does it rust? Is this a problem? Is it really a problem? Maybe Bromton has thought about that? Oh indeed!
Before painting, each frame is pretreated with an iron phosphate coating, this prevents any surface corrosion penetrating through the metal, therefore any rusting on the inside of the frame tubes is purely cosmetic rather than a structural problem. The electrostatic spraying of powder paint means the powder cannot enter into the inside of tubes easily and means that there is no paint on the inside of tubes beyond the first 3-10mm. Consequently the inside surface of the frame on a Brompton is unpainted and can appear ‘rusty’ but this will only be a surface discolouration due to the iron phosphate coating.
As the steelwork is protected from corrosion there is no need to apply any rust proofing or similar to seal the tubes. Blocking the ends of the tube can do more harm than good and can actually trap moisture inside the frame and not allow it to breathe.
The powdercoat will often become chipped or otherwise worn through normal use - this is part and parcel of bicycles getting used as they should. We would recommend sealing areas where the powdercoat is breached with a clear lacquer. If using coloured paint, test an inconspicuous area for colour matching first.
Over time, the powdercoat will come off the clamping surfaces of the hinge, where the two halves meet and where the clamp plate sits. This is due to the pressure on the paint exerted by the clamp and by the dynamic load imposed by riding. This is particularly true of the mainframe hinges, which sees a much higher dynamic loading during riding, but can also apply to the handlebar hinges. All Brompton bikes will experience this over time, it can be accelerated by the hinges being closed aggressively and the clamping surfaces bashed together. It should not prove a problem as even if the paint comes off, the steel has been phosphated prior to painting and therefore the steel will only exhibit light surface rusting/discoloration, and will not see significant rusting to the point of structural failure; As such its normal wear and tear and not a functional problem.
As the steelwork is protected from corrosion there is no need to apply any rust proofing or similar to seal the tubes. Blocking the ends of the tube can do more harm than good and can actually trap moisture inside the frame and not allow it to breathe.
The powdercoat will often become chipped or otherwise worn through normal use - this is part and parcel of bicycles getting used as they should. We would recommend sealing areas where the powdercoat is breached with a clear lacquer. If using coloured paint, test an inconspicuous area for colour matching first.
Over time, the powdercoat will come off the clamping surfaces of the hinge, where the two halves meet and where the clamp plate sits. This is due to the pressure on the paint exerted by the clamp and by the dynamic load imposed by riding. This is particularly true of the mainframe hinges, which sees a much higher dynamic loading during riding, but can also apply to the handlebar hinges. All Brompton bikes will experience this over time, it can be accelerated by the hinges being closed aggressively and the clamping surfaces bashed together. It should not prove a problem as even if the paint comes off, the steel has been phosphated prior to painting and therefore the steel will only exhibit light surface rusting/discoloration, and will not see significant rusting to the point of structural failure; As such its normal wear and tear and not a functional problem.
Yes, Bromptons do rust. But usually it is not a problem. Until a bit more than ten years ago there was a tiny hole left in the Brompton's rear frame that was necessary for production. This caused the rear frames to rust through in some cases and it was a more or less common problem on older bikes that have been ridden troughout the year. This hole has gone since then and so has the rusting through. I know only of a small handful of Bromptons after 2004 that rusted through, typically on the seat tube and those bikes appeared to be typical beaters, bikes in the UK that got ridden year in year out with very little maintenance. How many Brompton frames do you know of that rusted through? Are you maybe creating a problem artifically where there is none?
05-31-19, 12:02 PM
#7
Banned
adding a coating of say boiled linseed oil thru the hinge opening should be simple enough..
05-31-19, 03:16 PM
#8
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Are you so certain that this is an artificial problem that'll you'd guarantee to personally replace BromptonINrio's frame if it rusts through?
05-31-19, 03:34 PM
#9
Senior Member
In regards of self-treatment: Brompton is usually pretty customer oriented (at least they were in the past). Assumed an owner would mess around with the frame like BromptonNiro intends to do - would a manufacturer honor the warranty after such a treatment? Possibly not. For a reason. So it may even turn out to be counterproductive anyway and to me fear behind this treatment seems pretty irrational anyway.
05-31-19, 04:25 PM
#10
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05-31-19, 06:47 PM
#11
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05-31-19, 08:53 PM
#12
Senior Member
Power Supply: Use a good 12V battery charger.
Anode: Recommend look around for a old table saw blade. They work well.
Caution; Be careful using a bathtub. Check to ensure it is a fiberglass tub, not metal. And be careful with the battery charger... put it on the floor, not on the same level as or on the edge of the tub. Of course Kids must be kept away. All of those issues is why I use a surplus 55 gal plastic drum with lid and keep it in the garage.
Anode: Recommend look around for a old table saw blade. They work well.
Caution; Be careful using a bathtub. Check to ensure it is a fiberglass tub, not metal. And be careful with the battery charger... put it on the floor, not on the same level as or on the edge of the tub. Of course Kids must be kept away. All of those issues is why I use a surplus 55 gal plastic drum with lid and keep it in the garage.
06-01-19, 03:52 AM
#13
Stardust
Thread Starter
my bromptons have 19 years and 17 years, so no warranty to claim.
i dont want need no one to warranty nothing.
so please refrain to post dumb info like: " let it rust"; "the rust is cosmetic"; "he doesnt care about rust".
i just dont want it rust throught, simple as that.
i dont want need no one to warranty nothing.
so please refrain to post dumb info like: " let it rust"; "the rust is cosmetic"; "he doesnt care about rust".
i just dont want it rust throught, simple as that.
Last edited by BromptonINrio; 06-01-19 at 04:01 AM.
06-01-19, 06:35 AM
#14
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If you do not want the frame to rust, maintain it. Electrolysis removes the rust, provided all areas can be reached during its application, but on its own provides no maintenance. Frame Saver is often mentioned in the context of maintenance. I use my own mixture out of the airplane protectants: Boeshield T9, LPS 3 and ACF 50. The light components that will penetrate any existing rust are ACF 50 and T9. Chemical protection is provided by ACF 50 and mechanical by T9 and LPS3. LPS3 provides staying power. (Check the forums of motorcyclists who often employ ACF50 on their vehicles.) The steel frame on my everyday bike is 21 years old. The bike is ridden year round irrespectively of rain or snow and for some years was parked outside. During winter, over 4-5 months of the year, salt is spread over roads in our area and it normally rapidly accelerates corrosion. Of course in Rio you will have some carried by the breeze from the ocean. The frame rust is way down on the list of my concerns - I do not think that by examining any traces of rust you could tell whether my frame is 1 or 21 years old. I do not think that, in effectiveness, my mixture or Frame Saver would care the least whether you first removed any traces of rust by electrolysis or not.
06-01-19, 10:09 AM
#15
Senior Member
Wow amazing. 21 years old, 19, 17 years old Bromptons still in use. Are you guys using these bikes for daily commutes? What kind of mileage total for the bikes?
I do have a Huffy Windsprint that is probably 35 years old, but that bike has been in storage most of its life. There are rust spots here and there but nothing major. Still rideable, but its a Huffy.
I do have a Huffy Windsprint that is probably 35 years old, but that bike has been in storage most of its life. There are rust spots here and there but nothing major. Still rideable, but its a Huffy.
06-01-19, 11:25 AM
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My 21y old is a Trek, but original by now is only the frame and fork, though other parts may still pop here and there on other bikes.
In my observation even a meager carbohydrate film on steel slows rusting down to a stall. However once the film washes off the rust may progress as an avalanche. At some point I was given charge of bikes for visitors at work and one day they got kicked out to the outside parking for fire safety reasons. At first they were covered with grease of one sort or another, getting there during maintenance, and they held outdoors for months quite well in spite of elements in our area. However at some point all that grease washed off and they started rusting everywhere like crazy, eventually needing to be disposed off. At the time I still had little experience with rust protection - today I could make these bikes last there virtually forever I think.
In my observation even a meager carbohydrate film on steel slows rusting down to a stall. However once the film washes off the rust may progress as an avalanche. At some point I was given charge of bikes for visitors at work and one day they got kicked out to the outside parking for fire safety reasons. At first they were covered with grease of one sort or another, getting there during maintenance, and they held outdoors for months quite well in spite of elements in our area. However at some point all that grease washed off and they started rusting everywhere like crazy, eventually needing to be disposed off. At the time I still had little experience with rust protection - today I could make these bikes last there virtually forever I think.
06-01-19, 12:51 PM
#17
Stardust
Thread Starter
Wow amazing. 21 years old, 19, 17 years old Bromptons still in use. Are you guys using these bikes for daily commutes? What kind of mileage total for the bikes?
I do have a Huffy Windsprint that is probably 35 years old, but that bike has been in storage most of its life. There are rust spots here and there but nothing major. Still rideable, but its a Huffy.
I do have a Huffy Windsprint that is probably 35 years old, but that bike has been in storage most of its life. There are rust spots here and there but nothing major. Still rideable, but its a Huffy.
but the accont more acurate of mileage is:
3km to go
3km back
x
3 times week
x
52weeks/year
=
936km/year
x
17/years
=15.912km
taking away the rainy days, the travels, the lazy days:
-20%
12.730km
4 sets of tyres
3 sets of brakes
5 sets of chains
2 brompton
18km to go
18 km to go back
x 1 time week
x 52 weeks
= 1.872 km year
x19 years
35.568km
- 20% lazy rainy travel sick days
28.456km
6 sets of tyres
10 sets of chains
Last edited by BromptonINrio; 06-01-19 at 01:10 PM.
06-01-19, 01:12 PM
#18
Stardust
Thread Starter
If you do not want the frame to rust, maintain it. Electrolysis removes the rust, provided all areas can be reached during its application, but on its own provides no maintenance. Frame Saver is often mentioned in the context of maintenance. I use my own mixture out of the airplane protectants: Boeshield T9, LPS 3 and ACF 50. The light components that will penetrate any existing rust are ACF 50 and T9. Chemical protection is provided by ACF 50 and mechanical by T9 and LPS3. LPS3 provides staying power. (Check the forums of motorcyclists who often employ ACF50 on their vehicles.) The steel frame on my everyday bike is 21 years old. The bike is ridden year round irrespectively of rain or snow and for some years was parked outside. During winter, over 4-5 months of the year, salt is spread over roads in our area and it normally rapidly accelerates corrosion. Of course in Rio you will have some carried by the breeze from the ocean. The frame rust is way down on the list of my concerns - I do not think that by examining any traces of rust you could tell whether my frame is 1 or 21 years old. I do not think that, in effectiveness, my mixture or Frame Saver would care the least whether you first removed any traces of rust by electrolysis or not.
06-01-19, 01:55 PM
#19
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06-01-19, 02:09 PM
#20
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P.S. My bet is that the Frame Saver goes into a similar direction as my mixture, but my starting focus was the chain rust and my mixture proved itself effective there.
Last edited by 2_i; 06-01-19 at 02:16 PM. Reason: P.S.
