Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Bicycle Mechanics
Reload this Page >

Derailleur cable arm jams against 11-46 cassette biggest 3 cogs

Notices
Bicycle Mechanics Broken bottom bracket? Tacoed wheel? If you're having problems with your bicycle, or just need help fixing a flat, drop in here for the latest on bicycle mechanics & bicycle maintenance.

Derailleur cable arm jams against 11-46 cassette biggest 3 cogs

Old 03-11-20, 11:15 AM
  #1  
motorapido
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: harrisburg, pennsylvania
Posts: 351

Bikes: 1976 Schwinn Super Le Tour, tricked out with modern components. Shimano Alfine 11 internal gear hub. Dynamo hub. Titanium racks and bottle cages. Mercier Kilo Wide Tire dropbar singlespeed

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 1 Post
Derailleur cable arm jams against 11-46 cassette biggest 3 cogs

The derailleur cable arm touches/jams against the sunrace 11-46 cassette on a late 1970s road frame I'm converting to 1x10 (had been running this frame with an alfine 11 internal gear hub last few years). The derailleur mount is integrated into the dropouts and not detachable. Derailleur is brand new Shimano deore shadow m6000 and the b-link is attached to the derailleur just like it came out of the box. Wheel was built by a reputable, experienced bike shop. Shimano freehub is brand new. Cassette installed properly. Is this a problem of a 40 year old frame with integrated derailleur mount not being compatible with a shadow series derailleur? Years ago when I updated the bike to a 10 speed cassette 11-36, whatever derailleur I was using worked just fine. Do I need a goatlink? I haven't installed the chain yet due to this bad clearance problem. See photos of the problem.

motorapido is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 11:19 AM
  #2  
motorapido
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: harrisburg, pennsylvania
Posts: 351

Bikes: 1976 Schwinn Super Le Tour, tricked out with modern components. Shimano Alfine 11 internal gear hub. Dynamo hub. Titanium racks and bottle cages. Mercier Kilo Wide Tire dropbar singlespeed

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 1 Post
Note: derailleur hanger isn't bent out of alignment

Note: derailleur hanger isn't bent out of alignment. No crashes or damage. A few years ago when still running as a 2x10 I had carefully checked the hanger alignment, it was perfect, and I never did anything subsequently to damage the alignment.
motorapido is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 11:32 AM
  #3  
trailangel
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,847

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1931 Post(s)
Liked 741 Times in 421 Posts
put a chain on it and then take the picture
trailangel is offline  
Likes For trailangel:
Old 03-11-20, 11:41 AM
  #4  
motorapido
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: harrisburg, pennsylvania
Posts: 351

Bikes: 1976 Schwinn Super Le Tour, tricked out with modern components. Shimano Alfine 11 internal gear hub. Dynamo hub. Titanium racks and bottle cages. Mercier Kilo Wide Tire dropbar singlespeed

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 1 Post
On all prior derailer setups I've worked on, with the chain off there was no interference with the cogs. In this setup without the chain, for the jockey wheel to align with the smallest cog, the cable hanger arm is jammed tight against the third largest cog. Removing the wheel and installing the chain then reinstalling the wheel would not relieve the jam, would it? (I'm at work and not near my workshop so I can't take five minutes to give this a try)
motorapido is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 11:45 AM
  #5  
AnkleWork
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Llano Estacado
Posts: 3,702

Bikes: old clunker

Mentioned: 13 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 684 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 104 Times in 82 Posts
Originally Posted by trailangel
put a chain on it and then take the picture
+1, and attach the cable. Going forward, avoid other hypothetical problems.
AnkleWork is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 11:46 AM
  #6  
trailangel
Senior Member
 
trailangel's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2014
Location: Pasadena, CA
Posts: 4,847

Bikes: Schwinn Varsity

Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1931 Post(s)
Liked 741 Times in 421 Posts
Install chain with the wheel on. How can you ride a bike without the rear wheel?
trailangel is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 11:58 AM
  #7  
Bill Kapaun
Really Old Senior Member
 
Bill Kapaun's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2007
Location: Mid Willamette Valley, Orygun
Posts: 13,824

Bikes: 87 RockHopper,2008 Specialized Globe. Both upgraded to 9 speeds.

Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1774 Post(s)
Liked 1,231 Times in 852 Posts
Put the chain on and you probably don't need a picture.
Bill Kapaun is online now  
Old 03-11-20, 12:09 PM
  #8  
Iride01 
I'm good to go!
 
Iride01's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2017
Location: Mississippi
Posts: 14,811

Bikes: Tarmac Disc Comp Di2 - 2020

Mentioned: 50 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6100 Post(s)
Liked 4,732 Times in 3,262 Posts
Is this the model that has a lever that relaxes the spring tension on the pully wheel cage so it will drop?

But putting the chain on works too.
Iride01 is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 01:05 PM
  #9  
motorapido
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: harrisburg, pennsylvania
Posts: 351

Bikes: 1976 Schwinn Super Le Tour, tricked out with modern components. Shimano Alfine 11 internal gear hub. Dynamo hub. Titanium racks and bottle cages. Mercier Kilo Wide Tire dropbar singlespeed

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 1 Post
Chain installed. Clutch flipped to off position when installing wheel as normal. Arm still jammed. Clutch on or off makes no difference. Seems to be issue of the cassette diameter due to the huge lowest gears. But I can't be there only person to have encountered this when retrofitting on old frame for 1x10 with a huge low gear. It appears that the goat link, which replaces the b pivot is longer than the b pivot link, which would shove the shifter rearward and possibly solve the problem, but I have not read that this is an advertised benefit of the goat link.
motorapido is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 01:38 PM
  #10  
Wilfred Laurier
Señor Member
 
Wilfred Laurier's Avatar
 
Join Date: Feb 2013
Posts: 5,065
Mentioned: 5 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 648 Post(s)
Liked 291 Times in 215 Posts
Most of the time, when installing a wheel into a horizontal dropouot, the wheel is not pushed all the way back. In fact, many horizontal dropouts had a threaded hole through the rear C-shaped surface, and a small screw was put through to keep the wheel at the intended position in the dropouts. Re-position the wheel so the axle is in the middle of the dropouts and try again. From the picture, I believe sliding the wheel forward will improve the geometric situation causing the problem.
Wilfred Laurier is offline  
Likes For Wilfred Laurier:
Old 03-11-20, 02:42 PM
  #11  
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 2,258
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 712 Post(s)
Liked 793 Times in 471 Posts
Originally Posted by Wilfred Laurier
Most of the time, when installing a wheel into a horizontal dropouot, the wheel is not pushed all the way back. In fact, many horizontal dropouts had a threaded hole through the rear C-shaped surface, and a small screw was put through to keep the wheel at the intended position in the dropouts. Re-position the wheel so the axle is in the middle of the dropouts and try again. From the picture, I believe sliding the wheel forward will improve the geometric situation causing the problem.
This is your problem. Shimano's rear derailleur hanger specifications require the hanger mounting hole to be 4-10mm behind the axle. Your picture shows that your axle is so far back that the derailleur mounting hole is in front of the axle. .
dsaul is offline  
Likes For dsaul:
Old 03-11-20, 03:15 PM
  #12  
wesmamyke
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Nov 2009
Posts: 1,176
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 196 Post(s)
Liked 86 Times in 76 Posts
yeah, move the wheel as far forward in the dopout as possible. You can buy a spacer specifically for locating the axle correctly.

I've also seen people use chainring bolts, or whatever else can be bolted in there as a spacer.

Last edited by wesmamyke; 03-11-20 at 05:08 PM.
wesmamyke is offline  
Likes For wesmamyke:
Old 03-11-20, 05:09 PM
  #13  
motorapido
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: harrisburg, pennsylvania
Posts: 351

Bikes: 1976 Schwinn Super Le Tour, tricked out with modern components. Shimano Alfine 11 internal gear hub. Dynamo hub. Titanium racks and bottle cages. Mercier Kilo Wide Tire dropbar singlespeed

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 1 Post
Still jams after max axle movement

Still jams after max axle movement forward in dropout. See pic. Now it jams just on the 46 tooth biggest cog. I'm not missiing a spacer between the derailer b link and the frame mount, am I? The b link face is knurled in the same pattern embossed into the hanger from prior derailers. And where the b link joins the remainder of the derailer, the round

spacer is positioned toward the outside, not the inside of the joint, which is correct, I believe. If I moved that spacer to the inside, that would move the detailer inward, which would make it worse, right?
motorapido is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 05:50 PM
  #14  
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 2,258
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 712 Post(s)
Liked 793 Times in 471 Posts
The max cassette cog size on that derailleur is 36T. Shimano is a bit conservative on the max size rating, but there is no way that will work with an 11- 46t cassette.
dsaul is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 05:59 PM
  #15  
motorapido
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: harrisburg, pennsylvania
Posts: 351

Bikes: 1976 Schwinn Super Le Tour, tricked out with modern components. Shimano Alfine 11 internal gear hub. Dynamo hub. Titanium racks and bottle cages. Mercier Kilo Wide Tire dropbar singlespeed

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 1 Post
Right, but I had read many forum posts about this combination working, even without a goat link or long b screw. I figured I could trust what I read. Damn. Suggested alternative mech?
motorapido is offline  
Old 03-11-20, 07:46 PM
  #16  
Crankycrank
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2009
Location: San Diego, CA
Posts: 3,651
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 835 Post(s)
Liked 1,056 Times in 741 Posts
Originally Posted by motorapido
Do I need a goatlink?
Yes. Your derailleur hanger is too short.
Crankycrank is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 04:58 AM
  #17  
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 2,258
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 712 Post(s)
Liked 793 Times in 471 Posts
What are you using to shift this rear derailleur? There is no Shimano road shifter that will work with 10 speed MTB rear derailleurs. The only compatibility between Shimano road and MTB is 9 speed and below or 10 speed road shifters with 8/9 speed MTB rear derailleurs.

There is nothing from Shimano in the 10 speed and below range that is designed for anything larger than a 36t cog. A derailleur hanger extension is the only option to make this work.
dsaul is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 05:47 AM
  #18  
motorapido
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Join Date: Jun 2012
Location: harrisburg, pennsylvania
Posts: 351

Bikes: 1976 Schwinn Super Le Tour, tricked out with modern components. Shimano Alfine 11 internal gear hub. Dynamo hub. Titanium racks and bottle cages. Mercier Kilo Wide Tire dropbar singlespeed

Mentioned: 3 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 44 Post(s)
Liked 8 Times in 1 Post
Microshift integrated drop bar shifters. Worked fine when I used them last when this bike was 2x10 11-36. I don't recall the derailer I was using at that time. I'll cross the shifter road after I sort out the interference between the derailer and big cog. It just seems odd that as I was studying up on 1x with the 11-46 cassette that nobody mentioned the necessity of a derailer hanger extender and many claimed that the m6000 shadow worked fine without a goat link and with the original b screw.
motorapido is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 12:24 PM
  #19  
dsaul
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: South Jersey
Posts: 2,258
Mentioned: 18 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 712 Post(s)
Liked 793 Times in 471 Posts
I just looked at the M6000 specs again and the GS version specs show a max. 42t, so it may work with a 46t cassette. Is yours the SGS version?

In any event, it won't work with your Microhift drop bar shifters. They are Shimano 10 speed road compatible.
dsaul is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 05:18 PM
  #20  
sch
Senior Member
 
Join Date: May 2003
Location: Mountain Brook. AL
Posts: 4,002
Mentioned: 14 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 303 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 136 Times in 104 Posts
Regardless of specs and others experience, the OP experience is that the RD is not compatible as mounted with the 11-46 cassette.
RD extenders are available on amazon for $10 or less. I think the next step is to try one, cheaper than another RD.
sch is offline  
Old 03-12-20, 08:57 PM
  #21  
tFUnK
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jun 2002
Location: San Jose, CA
Posts: 3,652

Bikes: Too many bikes, too little time to ride

Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 424 Post(s)
Liked 442 Times in 303 Posts
Agreed: try the derailleur extender. Shifter compatibility will be a whole other set of problems though.
tFUnK is offline  

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off


Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service -

Copyright © 2024 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.