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Critique my bike position please!

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Critique my bike position please!

Old 05-29-17, 09:37 PM
  #1  
johngwheeler
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Critique my bike position please!

I've been trying to find a comfortable position on my Giant TCX cyclocross bike. My usage is mainly commuting and informal riding at medium-long distance (I'd like to work up to 150-200km).

I have slowly (in 5mm increments) being raising my saddle height as my strength and flexibility improve and have it now at almost exactly 0.883 x my inside leg measurement (746mm). I feel that I'm now at my limit using the "heel on pedal" test, but wonder if I am actually too high (see video / photo below)

However, I felt very "stretched out" with my arms too straight when reaching for the hoods, and uncomfortable on the saddle. I assumed that the increases in saddle height had changed the saddle set-back rearwards, so I moved it forward by about 15mm. This feels more relaxed to me, but maybe I've gone too far?

I took some video and photos of myself riding on a trainer, and would like to hear some opinions of my position. A couple of things worth noting:

1) I am actually much more upright than I thought I was!

2) My back to upper arm angle seems to be a fair bit less than 90 degrees, which makes me wonder whether I've brought the saddle too far forward.

3) I haven't tested my leg position using KOPS, just going on feel. I've only ridden 15km so far and haven't noticed any knee discomfort yet.

4) When riding out of the saddle my knees are now quite close to the bars, but not touching or rubbing, so this seems OK.

5) When pedalling with my heels, to test saddle height, I can see some rocking of the hips, but not too much when I'm clipped in normally.

Here are the photos:

On the hoods: Giant-bike-fit-hoods-saddle-forward-15mm.jpg

On the drops: Giant-bike-fit-drops-saddle-forward-15mm.jpg

With heels on pedals: Giant-bike-fit-heels-on-peddle-saddle-forward-15mm.jpg

If it helps, here are some short video clips of me peddling in each position (including the awkward heel pedalling):

On the hoods: https://www.dropbox.com/s/dywtty0zlk...hoods.m4v?dl=0

On the hoods, from rear: https://www.dropbox.com/s/r8vlby952q...-rear.m4v?dl=0

Pedalling with heels: https://www.dropbox.com/s/0pw3qdv8d5...heels.m4v?dl=0

Pedalling with heels, from rear: https://www.dropbox.com/s/8kxh0jaevq...-rear.m4v?dl=0

Thanks for any feedback or advice!

John
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Old 05-30-17, 09:21 AM
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Looking at the photos, you look OK.
Don't your elbows bend though?
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Old 05-30-17, 10:10 AM
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i don;t know anything about anything.

that being said, id want to be a bit more stretched than you are. you look a bit compacted to me, and maybe a touch far forward. you are not relaxed enough as evidenced by your tense arms. fit your self to the hoods, thats where the action is. id pay less attention to heels and kops and whatever all that is. its just a guideline. pay attention to your body.

these things take a while. 2 years ago i maxed out on about 6cm of drop, and 53.5cm reach. now i run 54.5cm reach and 10cm drop. just flexibility and technique.
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Old 05-30-17, 10:40 AM
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I think your saddle is a bit to high and your knees seems to be in front of the bottom bracket.

Do you find your saddle confortable ?

I recently change my saddle and it made a huge difference in confort.

Improper saddle widht can cause your pelvis to lean forward or backward resulting in a uncomfortable position.

The thing with fit is that is a lot of trial and error. It took me about 1 year to get confortable on my bike.
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Old 05-30-17, 12:13 PM
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Bike looks too small. See in the photo in post 2, how his elbows are in front of his bent knee and upper arms 90° of his torso? That's what it's supposed to look like in that position. With your current bike, moving the saddle all the way back would be a good start. Yes, it will feel different, but your body will adapt to the position.
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Old 05-30-17, 09:27 PM
  #6  
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Thanks very much for the replies.

Yes, I do look pretty stiff and vertical compared to the photos you posted! More like I'm on a beach cruiser than a drop-bar bike....

I do bend my elbows when I'm going a bit faster or cornering, but I'll try to do get my back lower and bend my elbows more for general riding and see how I go.

One reason for moving my saddle forward was because I felt too stretched out when reaching for the bars with almost locked arms. If I get my back lower, then my arms will come forward, and I should be able to bend my elbows and relax my shoulders.

I also didn't find the saddle very comfortable, so was looking to get a better position.

I don't think the bike is too small - the Giant M/L size felt too stretched out - similar to a 56cm or larger frame. I am between two sizes though - I'm 177cm (5'9.5") and sit somewhere between a 54cm and 56cm frame.

I may be able to get the saddle back (or even use a longer stem) if I stretch more. Provided I can balance my torso without my arms, when riding the drops, I should be OK.

Thanks!

John
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Old 05-31-17, 12:01 PM
  #7  
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What are your riding goals?

If your hips rock, your seat is almost definitely too high. It may work for you, but ....

You really need to learn to bend your arms at the elbow. You may feel stretched out, but by usual riding standards, you're not.

Get he seat height right, and bend your elbows, and you'll probably want to ride more.

If you're new to biking, it makes sense for the M/L to feel too stretched out. You can probably convince yourself this bike works for you, but I'm another person who thinks it's too small for you.

(signed) philbob57, who spent too many years on a bike that was too small.
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Old 05-31-17, 04:23 PM
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Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
What are your riding goals?

If your hips rock, your seat is almost definitely too high. It may work for you, but ....

You really need to learn to bend your arms at the elbow. You may feel stretched out, but by usual riding standards, you're not.

Get he seat height right, and bend your elbows, and you'll probably want to ride more.

If you're new to biking, it makes sense for the M/L to feel too stretched out. You can probably convince yourself this bike works for you, but I'm another person who thinks it's too small for you.

(signed) philbob57, who spent too many years on a bike that was too small.
Thanks for the reply. My goals are to get a good fit for longer endurance style rides - I don't intend to race , except against myself!

My concern with rocking hips was only when I was trying to pedal with my heels; when I'm clipped in, I don't see a lot of hip movement. I doubt I would go any higher though, and I might come down 5mm if I find I have any knee discomfort.

Totally agree that I need to get more flexibiliity in my body and bend my elbows. I am a relatively new rider and I've only had a cursory shop bike fit when I bought the bike. I flipped the stem of the bike myself (up) because I was getting neck pain trying to keep my head up and found the higher bars to be more comfortable. They are still 5-6cm below the saddle, but comfortable.

Regarding bike size, this is an interesting question. I hope I haven't made a big (expensive) mistake! I have tried 54cm and 56cm frames (e.g. Trek) and found both feel OK in the shop. I test rode a Trek 56cm and it was manageable, but a bit stretched. As you say, with great flexibility and core strength, I may find a more stretched out position on a larger bike to be better in the long run. I'll have to persevere with the bike I have for now though - unless I really can't live with it.
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Old 05-31-17, 04:35 PM
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the saddle looks uncomfortable because you see to be sitting very far forward on the saddle.
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Old 05-31-17, 05:25 PM
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I forgot that your saddle was set pretty far forward. You've got the option of moving it back. That makes the bike less 'too small', if it really is too small.

Here's the thing - as you ride, you are almost certain to get more flexible. Every season I start out having to stretch to reach the 'bars (never mind the brakes, which adrenaline alone lets me reach at first). Within a couple of months (in 2013-2015) or a couple of rides (2016-17, when I used a trainer a little bit in the winter), I find myself automatically on the hoods.

But that works mainly because I have to stretch myself at the beginning. You're so close to the 'bars that you may not get that effect. If you move your seat back and bend your arms, maybe you'll get the effect.

Even if you ride on 'smooth' roads, you'll go over a lot of irregularities. The bent elbows allows the arms to act as springs to make the road less rough and reduce stress on hands, wrists, elbow, and shoulders.

It may be that you hold your arms straight because your seat is too high to feel totally stable on the bike. Rocking hips while pedaling backwards with heels on the pedals are often a symptom of that. I'm not a fitter, and I know enough to say 'never' almost never.

Whether your seat is too high or not, I think some places I can be happy saying 'never' is 'never pedal with arms straight for long' and 'never introduce multiple changes simultaneously unless you have to'. So why not start first with bending your elbows?

Last edited by philbob57; 05-31-17 at 05:28 PM.
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Old 05-31-17, 09:37 PM
  #11  
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Originally Posted by redlude97 View Post
the saddle looks uncomfortable because you see to be sitting very far forward on the saddle.
Interesting observation. Looks like I should shuffle my butt back a bit, and stretch out lower to compensate. I tend to instinctively do this when going faster (when I get lower on the drops).
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Old 05-31-17, 09:40 PM
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Originally Posted by philbob57 View Post
I forgot that your saddle was set pretty far forward. You've got the option of moving it back. That makes the bike less 'too small', if it really is too small.

Here's the thing - as you ride, you are almost certain to get more flexible. Every season I start out having to stretch to reach the 'bars (never mind the brakes, which adrenaline alone lets me reach at first). Within a couple of months (in 2013-2015) or a couple of rides (2016-17, when I used a trainer a little bit in the winter), I find myself automatically on the hoods.

But that works mainly because I have to stretch myself at the beginning. You're so close to the 'bars that you may not get that effect. If you move your seat back and bend your arms, maybe you'll get the effect.

Even if you ride on 'smooth' roads, you'll go over a lot of irregularities. The bent elbows allows the arms to act as springs to make the road less rough and reduce stress on hands, wrists, elbow, and shoulders.

It may be that you hold your arms straight because your seat is too high to feel totally stable on the bike. Rocking hips while pedaling backwards with heels on the pedals are often a symptom of that. I'm not a fitter, and I know enough to say 'never' almost never.

Whether your seat is too high or not, I think some places I can be happy saying 'never' is 'never pedal with arms straight for long' and 'never introduce multiple changes simultaneously unless you have to'. So why not start first with bending your elbows?
Great advice; thanks! I'll try bending my elbows and getting a bit lower and further back on the saddle. I'll think about slightly changing saddle height and set-back adjustments once I feel I'm in a comfortable position.
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Old 06-01-17, 07:10 AM
  #13  
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I compared a few measurements to my other bike, a 54cm Trek Crossrip, and found that my saddle-to-bar distance was about 30-35mm shorter on the Giant. Part of this is the difference in top tube length (supposedly only about 9mm shorter on the Giant, but my measurements showed closer to 20mm shorter). The rest is probably saddle set back and small differences in the stem length.

So, the.medium Giant *is* a fair bit smaller than the 54cm Trek.

I've move the saddle back again and tested for KOPS and dropped a plumb-line from my nose to the bars - pretty much aligned. Saddle height is at maximum for comfort, but I won't lower it unless I feel discomfort after a longer ride.

I tested my balance "hands-free" in the drops and was able to hold the position with only minor pressure on the pedals, and it was easier to do this after moving the saddle backwards.

I seem to have a reasonably comfortable, but considerably lower, position on the hoods with my elbows bent 20-30 degree, so I'll try riding in this position and see how I go!

Thanks for all your input.

John

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Old 06-01-17, 10:57 AM
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you might get some insight with this: Bike Fast Fit
It takes a bit of time to learn (45mins to "get it") but it's very interesting. Not gold standard or anything, but I think that it really helps conceptualize the fit factors. I use my iPad strapped to a fat wooden block on a barstool while I ride the rollers about 8 feet away.
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Old 06-01-17, 12:53 PM
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When I want to ride more 'efficiently', it is easy to achieve a lower position by rolling my hips on the saddle rather than bending further at the waist. If that works for you then the saddle itself may make a difference. Saddles are personal, so not relating facts but what works for me. 1. A long narrow saddle allows me to adjust my position whether it be a bit more upright and rearward where the saddle is broader and more supportive, or in a forward position and more aero for max efficiency. There are many saddles like this on the market. OR 2. A more contoured saddle as pictured below. My example is Selle SMP.
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Old 06-01-17, 07:27 PM
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[Update: I rode to work (15km) this morning with the modified position, reminding myself to keep low, bend my elbows, relax my shoulders and keep my butt to rear of the saddle.

I did feel a fair bit more crouched over and noticed some upper back, neck stiffness, but it wasn't too uncomfortable. Pressure on my hands was maybe a little bit more, but my back-side felt considerably more comfortable either due to moving rearward in the saddle to fit better with my sit bones, or simply unweighting it a bit and having less pressure on it.

I'll persevere with this for a bit and hope my back adapts to the new lower posture.

The goo news is that I shaved off 30-60s from my average journey time and my average speed increased by about 1km/h, so there would appear to be tangible aero benefit in getting lower. ]
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Old 06-01-17, 07:29 PM
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Originally Posted by blacknbluebikes View Post
you might get some insight with this: Bike Fast Fit
It takes a bit of time to learn (45mins to "get it") but it's very interesting. Not gold standard or anything, but I think that it really helps conceptualize the fit factors. I use my iPad strapped to a fat wooden block on a barstool while I ride the rollers about 8 feet away.
Looks interesting, so I bought it. Definitely worth a go for $8.

Thanks for the suggestion.

John
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Old 06-02-17, 09:40 PM
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it takes time, core strength will allow you to have less pressure on hands.

but ride comfortably, not to some standard that doesn't work for you. ride on!

i may check out the company that is selling a saddle and riding short combo.

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Old 07-19-17, 11:56 AM
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I have the same bike (2018 TCX) in the Medium frame, I am 5'8". I wanted a cyclocross bike to fit my riding terrain. Coming from road bikes and time trials from 25 yrs ago, first thing I noticed was how "tight" the frame geometry felt. If I climbed standing up I would hit my knees on the bar ends and I kept sliding as far back as possible on my seat. We put a longer stem on and slammed my seat back to make it work to get me in a comfortable and stronger riding position. The bike is awesome and does just what it should, but I changed the set up/intended cyclocross geometry so much that I probably should have looked a gravel grinder/endurance styled bikes instead. I always feel like I am riding on top of the TCX as opposed to riding in it, if that makes any sense. Bikes have come a long ways in the last 25 yrs. Bike makers are producing a different bike (or product label for very similar bikes) for any and every type of riding.

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Old 07-19-17, 03:51 PM
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Originally Posted by espressogrinder View Post
I have the same bike (2018 TCX) in the Medium frame, I am 5'8". I wanted a cyclocross bike to fit my riding terrain. Coming from road bikes and time trials from 25 yrs ago, first thing I noticed was how "tight" the frame geometry felt. If I climbed standing up I would hit my knees on the bar ends and I kept sliding as far back as possible on my seat. We put a longer stem on and slammed my seat back to make it work to get me in a comfortable and stronger riding position. The bike is awesome and does just what it should, but I changed the set up/intended cyclocross geometry so much that I probably should have looked a gravel grinder/endurance styled bikes instead. I always feel like I am riding on top of the TCX as opposed to riding in it, if that makes any sense. Bikes have come a long ways in the last 25 yrs. Bike makers are producing a different bike (or product label for very similar bikes) for any and every type of riding.
Thanks for the feeback. It's interesting that even though your're a bit shorter than me (I'm 5'9.5"), that you found the cockpit too scrunched up in the medium frame.. It does have a relatively short top tube (about 2cm shorter than my Trek Crossrip), but I've found it difficult to get comfortable even moving the saddle back and forward (my fitter actually moved it forward), so maybe I need to experiment with different stem lengths and angles. I should really have bought the Medium/Large. It does have quite an agressive position for me, becuase I have my seat height at 760mm and there is a fair bit of bar drop (even with all the spacers and flipped stem). Your're right about it being tall; this is I think mainly due to the high bottom bracket. I can barely touch the ground with the toe of my unclipped foot when I stop.

I have also wondered whether I should have gone for more dedicated gravel bike rather than a CX race bike. It's a nice bike, but definitely designed for a particular thing, and does have some compromises for use as road or gravel bike.
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Old 07-19-17, 06:13 PM
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Originally Posted by johngwheeler View Post
Thanks for the feeback. It's interesting that even though your're a bit shorter than me (I'm 5'9.5"), that you found the cockpit too scrunched up in the medium frame.. It does have a relatively short top tube (about 2cm shorter than my Trek Crossrip), but I've found it difficult to get comfortable even moving the saddle back and forward (my fitter actually moved it forward), so maybe I need to experiment with different stem lengths and angles. I should really have bought the Medium/Large. It does have quite an agressive position for me, becuase I have my seat height at 760mm and there is a fair bit of bar drop (even with all the spacers and flipped stem). Your're right about it being tall; this is I think mainly due to the high bottom bracket. I can barely touch the ground with the toe of my unclipped foot when I stop.

I have also wondered whether I should have gone for more dedicated gravel bike rather than a CX race bike. It's a nice bike, but definitely designed for a particular thing, and does have some compromises for use as road or gravel bike.
In an ideal world I would swap the TCX with a medium Blue Prosecco EX (carbon). The Blue would fit your proportions perfectly for that style bike.

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