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Mask for cyclists

Old 05-03-20, 08:17 PM
  #76  
GlennR
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Originally Posted by jack pot View Post
>>> these kind of clowns NEVER show there whiter than white faces >>>gun show militiamen ready to show off their "for gun range only" ARs & strike narco terrorist poses > favorite books: mein kamf & the turner diaries > ugly wife & fat kids who lack hand eye >>>> ... good thing is that they are so F#*Kin stupid that in todays times their masks make them safer to be around > i guess i've used up my liberal stereotyping allotment
Don't hold back, tell us how you really feel
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Old 05-03-20, 08:25 PM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by GlennR View Post
New York total cases 323,883 New cases +4,670 Total Deaths 24,648
Wisconsin total cases 7,964 new cases +304 Total Deaths 339

sure... it's the media

I hope the FACTS don't confuse you.
Like the FACTS show, way worse in New York, not even close to the 17-18 flu season where I live, worst never came to pass here. My neighbor, whose daughter is a nurse on the floor they set up for covid patients in one of the larger Milwaukee hospitals, just got furloughed, only 14 patients. The FACTS are all on the CDC website. Media does not reflect whatís happening in flyover country. Obviously would not even be riding a bike in NYC, Wisconsin has 5.8 million people, been traveling all over the state, not changing my riding habits for something that killed 339, out of 5.8 million people, over the last month and a half. Iím not the confused one, but it does depend on your environment. As I stated earlier, this is like polio before the vaccine.
Tim
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Old 05-03-20, 08:33 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by tkamd73 View Post
My neighbor, whose daughter is a nurse on the floor they set up for covid patients in one of the larger Milwaukee hospitals, just got furloughed, only 14 patients.
Tim
She's welcome to come to NYC. They'll provide housing in a local hotel for free. They also pay a premium salery which comparedto Wisconsin could be double what she was making.

Just saying, there's plenty of work here.

BTW, so far we had 15 deaths in my synagogue and a long time co-worker had her 42 year old daughter pass from it leaving 16 and 13 year old children.

It's deadly serious here. Let's just hope it doesn't spread.
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Old 05-04-20, 07:15 AM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by GeneO View Post
It was a sound scientific study whose conclusions were based on data. Inferences other made from the data and how it relates to transmission of virus are questionable, as no one knows the details of how the virus is transmitted through droplets. I would appreciate it if you could post some links to some of those virologist and epidemiologist comments as I am very interested in this.
Originally Posted by GeneO View Post
Do you think a study of droplet dispersal should be done by someone without engineering training? There are engineers that specialize in the study of virus spread - the Wired article linked I quoted one specifically on this study. The author of the second article you edited your post to link in is an MD, but no specialist.

First off, the author (A pediatric pathologist and not a virologist, epidemiologist, or engineer ) starts with the line attributing this to an "expat-Russian" Belgian who was in "cloud computing", an obvious attempt to disparage the paper since this reporter has nothing to do with the study just like your other "VICE" ink had nothing to do with it. Then she refers to one of the actual authors as the "Wind tunnel sports guy, decided to get into experimental virology and then decided his conclusions were too important to submit for publication or any form of peer review," The article in question is a pre-print (https://www.urbanphysics.net/Social%2...hite_Paper.pdf), which by-the-way is an established scientific means of presenting results before they have been peer reviewed. I am just stating this because it is a tone that reflects the article is biased.

She stated:

1. "He concluded if ANY droplets hit the trailing athlete, they'd get infected; and came up with the 30-feet rule, implying all of the guidance on social distancing was laughably ineffective" They never claimed anything about infection.
2. "Humans aren't spray nozzles generating a continuous mist of droplets under steady pressure". Well I think that this may be a good approximation of runners or cyclists, but it could be off,.
3. -"MOST IMPORTANTLY BY FAR: there was no attempt made to simulate an appropriate infectious dose. How many virions do we need to inhale in order to reliably become infected? How much virus does an infected person generate, anyway?". Yes, well they were studying the dispersal of droplets that can carry viral doses, not the doses.

Again, as I said, I think too little is known about how the virus spreads and what how big an infectious dose is, droplet size, etc. to rule this out or to come up with any distance rules in these situations. To me it is obvious that, to err on the safe side, you should allow for more distance if following in a biker's or runner's slipstream , particularly when little wind.
So basically, it's a sound study of something but since it can't identify the variables being tested, it's useful how?

I'm pretty sure my nose at the front of my face emitting and taking in air cyclically is not closely approximated by a jet-streaming nozzle sitting in a wind chamber. An engineer might have something to contribute to a study of air flow, yes, but the lack of medical input into the design and analysis of this is absurd.

I'm not riding with anyone, I'm not closely following anyone or letting them draft on me, but that's out of common sense, not because of some bogus "study" done by an engineer out of his depth.

wgscott might help you more with the virologist references. From what I've seen, most of the comments from them consist of variations of "this isn't even worth discussing".
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Old 05-04-20, 11:11 AM
  #80  
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Originally Posted by bran1986 View Post
Correct. Not needed if you are biking/running/walking outside, so long as you do not come within 6 feet of other people. At least those are the rules in PA.
here in Boston area, you're supposed to wear a mask UNLESS you really can distance...so far when biking I don't wear one...as, in fact: I try to stay 20 feet from everyone.
I totally will not ride on any of the bike paths and such, as those are so crowded these days (and there's less traffic on the roads, though not so little that you don't need to be as careful as always). I do bring along a mask (and a small bottle of sanitizer) just in case I should find myself in some unpredicatable situation.
The rule that you HAVE to wear a mask unless you don't really need to is probably...a bit vague...but it suits me. I woudln't dream of going in a grocery store without one.
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Old 05-04-20, 11:25 AM
  #81  
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it seems that unless you're wearing a properly fitted N95 mask, the best a cloth mask will do will slow the velocity of particles coming out of your nose and mouth. This is helpful if you're standing near someone, but I'd contend utterly useless on a bike, where your bike speed, wind, etc have a much bigger effect.

The virus is around .06 to .125 microns. According to this paper (below) by doctors who specialize in the area, cloth type masks only filter a small fraction of particles that size. The rest just flow on through. The particles are not filling up in your mask, they are escaping into the wind around you and being dispersed.

I don't have any N95 masks, so I don't wear anything while riding. Doesn't seem to protect me or protect others from me. When overtaking a rider, I call ahead to let them know (usually they move hard right). That gives me a chance to swing wide very early, make the pass, then I don't move back right until I'm a way up the road.

Since I'm a noob, I can't post links. So, here's a bastardized link version you can piece together if you want to read it:

www(dot)cidrap.umn.edu (slash) news-perspective/2020/04/commentary-masks-all-covid-19-not-based-sound-data
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Old 05-04-20, 11:27 AM
  #82  
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nice attitude

Originally Posted by tkamd73 View Post
No, and never will, when cycling anyway.
Tim
It is to protect others....not you...civic responsibility...
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Old 05-04-20, 11:47 AM
  #83  
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Nope
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Old 05-04-20, 12:00 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by Ed333 View Post
It is to protect others....not you...civic responsibility...
The question is: "does wearing a mask while cycling actually protect others?"

Unless the mask is a properly fitted N95, the answer is most likely "no" (see my post just above yours about filtering efficiency of diff mask types)

Where a mask of any type could potentially help protect others from you, is if you happen to sneeze or blow a snot rocket when a fellow rider is close.
A cloth mask could catch the larger spittles.
But, to protect others, I just look around before blowing a rocket.

That being said, I do wear a mask when going to stores, etc, because the proximity to people and airflow dynamics are totally different
(just a note: I'm not a science denier type person. I'm an engineer who's data / science driven)

Last edited by stuff shredman; 05-04-20 at 12:05 PM.
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Old 05-04-20, 02:03 PM
  #85  
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Originally Posted by Ed333 View Post
It is to protect others....not you...civic responsibility...
Oh come on, the Boy Scouts aren’t even that popular anymore! Little evidence of transmission, whilst being in very momentary proximity of others when outdoors. I guess everybody I share the MUP with, is civically like minded, by not wearing a mask. My favorite is the media reporting the news and weather outdoors with a mask on, like we would actually follow their lead, which they can’t, must think we actually respect them, or something.
Indoors, at retail establishments, public spaces, government buildings, I get it, and carry a mask, wear it if warranted, requested, or mandated.
Tim

Last edited by tkamd73; 05-04-20 at 02:10 PM.
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Old 05-04-20, 02:16 PM
  #86  
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I picked up one of the stretchy types off of Amazon and love it. It took 2-3 rides to get comfortable with it but now, I will use every single time I ride. Not just due to the threat of covid but also helps reduce the amount of pollen and dust I am breathing in.
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Old 05-04-20, 02:32 PM
  #87  
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No for me on the mask while cycling. It's not required in NC for exercise if you are socially distancing. I ride mostly rural roads. I come across the occasional runner and we usually just move apart as we pass.
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Old 05-04-20, 03:10 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by stuff shredman View Post
The question is: "does wearing a mask while cycling actually protect others?"

Unless the mask is a properly fitted N95, the answer is most likely "no" (see my post just above yours about filtering efficiency of diff mask types)

Are N95 masks a good way to protect others or do they only protect yourself?

From the article you quoted above

https://www.cidrap.umn.edu/news-pers...sed-sound-data


respirators are the best choice for protecting healthcare and other frontline workers, but not recommended for source control.
I have read that N95 type repirators are not good for protecting others as your exhalations are not filtered, its only your inhalations.
I'm not a medical person, and I would like some better info on this, whether it is the case or not.

Wearing masks is something where even the experts disagree, so I am not going to offer an opinion, I'm just some dude on the internet. Err on the side of caution and be careful about criticizing the actions of others. Go out and ride your bike. Its probably the safest thing you can do.
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Old 05-04-20, 03:21 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by skookum View Post
Are N95 masks a good way to protect others or do they only protect yourself?

I have read that N95 type repirators are not good for protecting others as your exhalations are not filtered, its only your inhalations.
I'm not a medical person, and I would like some better info on this, whether it is the case or not.

Wearing masks is something where even the experts disagree, so I am not going to offer an opinion, I'm just some dude on the internet. Err on the side of caution and be careful about criticizing the actions of others. Go out and ride your bike. Its probably the safest thing you can do.
Great question. There are two main variants of the N95: those with exhaust valves and those without exhaust valves.
The variant with exhaust valves is not recommended, as your exhalation is not filtered and does not protect others from you.
My wife is a doctor, and they do not use the N95's with exhaust valves in the hospital for this reason. Those types of masks are great just to protect your own lungs, like if you're sanding something. They make for easier breathing due to the vent.

The variant without exhaust valves will protect others from you BUT, no mask is 100% effective, so social distancing, hand washing, and refrain from eye, ear, and nose touching should still be priority one, even when wearing a mask
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Old 05-04-20, 03:33 PM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by stuff shredman View Post
Great question. There are two main variants of the N95: those with exhaust valves and those without exhaust valves.
The variant with exhaust valves is not recommended, as your exhalation is not filtered and does not protect others from you.
My wife is a doctor, and they do not use the N95's with exhaust valves in the hospital for this reason. Those types of masks are great just to protect your own lungs, like if you're sanding something. They make for easier breathing due to the vent.

The variant without exhaust valves will protect others from you BUT, no mask is 100% effective, so social distancing, hand washing, and refrain from eye, ear, and nose touching should still be priority one, even when wearing a mask
Thanks for the thoughtful reply.
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Old 05-04-20, 03:48 PM
  #91  
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No mask, but do keep one in my pocket should I need it.

I ride my mtb 1st thing in the morning right when the sun comes up, so whatever might have been in the air has been dropped to the ground by the overnight/morning moisture. There are very few cars and very few people. If I see someone coming up on the sidewalk (on my side of the street), I tend to move to the middle of the street to provide 15+ ft. distance. If they are coming towards me, I move over quickly and, once I've moved some distance past them, I slide slowly back into the bike lane. Reverse if they are going the same direction as me. I used to have abt 1/3 of my route on an mup, but have rerouted to strictly streets until this all blows over.

Having said all that....the other morning out on my ride some idiot was coming at me in the bike lane walking, NOT running. He had to see me coming towards him, but did nothing to even indicate he saw me. Pure ****** bag Next time I encounter him, I'm tempted to start coughing as I move out of the bike lane and let him worry abt what I may or may not be wanting to share with him

Cheers....
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Old 05-04-20, 07:41 PM
  #92  
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Originally Posted by tkamd73 View Post
Refreshing, 30 mile ride on our local MUP yesterday, first really nice, warm, dry day this spring. Lots of user on the trail, walkers, joggers, runners, and unfortunately for me, dogs on long leashes, Of course, lots of bikers, refreshing part, not one single face mask. Either its diminishing, or I donít live in New York, where the media is based. Actually, we are just going to have to get used it, being among us, kind of like when I was a kid, before the polio vaccine.
Tim
I was very saddened by the lack of masks on our local MUP this weekend. This virus is not being spread by people who are ďsickĒ with Covid 19, itís being spread by people who feel perfectly fine while being infected with Covid 19. Thatís why early studies show that probably twice as many people are actually infected than have tested positive. I feel very sorry for the high percentage of people who have so little regard for their fellow humans. Wearing a mask helps protect others.
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Old 05-04-20, 07:51 PM
  #93  
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Masks

The study I think we are talking about had the shortcoming the airflow was laminar, which is almost never the case. However, the basic idea is there. Some of the drops can get from the first rider to the second. And if winds are light, being outside is no magic. True, inside drops can accumulate, but that's only the tiny aerosols, Inside or out the larger droplets drop. If 6 ft apart is OK inside the drops might have a couple seconds to drop if two people were facing each other as they were talking. Maybe a good rule would be to stay 6 feet plus two seconds apart. If you are following someone you notice as they pass a point, count one-two and verify that you are still six feet apart. Side wind is more complicated.


And, as far as the laminar flow, turbulence won't instantly disperse the cloud of droplets, but will make it disperse faster. I would assume the cloud is wider than the study showed, but shorter. Generally that's good and the safe distance is less extreme. However, there could be a secondary effect. The turbulence will spread the cloud in every direction. Since that includes upward, some small fraction of the larger drops will stay up longer than otherwise.


There is a lot that's not known about this virus, but social distancing of all types has made a big difference. It's hard to say how much, but even with increased testing, here in Colorado the time to double has stretched out from around 3 days to around 20. At 3 days one case goes to 1000 in around a month. Another month is a million and it couldn't go for much longer than that because we don't have enough people.


Has anyone mentioned that masks with vents are now banned in California? Unfortunately, the same thing that makes them comfortable is what keeps them from protecting others. It's too bad that the test for an effective mask is it stuffy. If it's not, it's not doing much. Most stretchy stuff, like neck gaiters and bandanas probably fall into that category.


I admit, I want to be doing something. It feels like being on an airplane. If you think about the country, well really the world really, bad things can happen, but there's nothing significant I personally can do about it. I'll admit though, MUPs and a mask seem hopeless. I have done most rides on roads away from other riders and I don't have to be 6 ft lateral distance away when passing. Hey, in a pinch, hold your breath for a second. It protects both people.
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Old 05-04-20, 08:04 PM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by peterraymond View Post
Has anyone mentioned that masks with vents are now banned in California? Unfortunately, the same thing that makes them comfortable is what keeps them from protecting others. It's too bad that the test for an effective mask is it stuffy. If it's not, it's not doing much. Most stretchy stuff, like neck gaiters and bandanas probably fall into that category.
Guess my mask is effective. Wore an old N95 mask from my shop for an hour in Costco today and was relieved to finally remove it. Very uncomfortable after a while. Kudos to all those health care workers wearing these things and more for 8-12 hrs/day. Can't imaging wearing one on a bike or running.
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Old 05-05-20, 02:02 PM
  #95  
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I wear a mask when it's cold out, to keep my face warm. It also helps warm the air when inhaling.

Back when they said don't wear masks, I wore one when going shopping.

Now that everyone else is wearing a mask, I refuse to wear one at all.
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Old 05-05-20, 02:41 PM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by TheLizard View Post

Now that everyone else is wearing a mask, I refuse to wear one at all.

I guess I just don't get this. It's not purely selfish. Is it reflexive anger?. Instead of doing something reasonable to conserve life it's acting in risky ways. Instead of supporting health workers it's acting to send more people their way. Instead of trying to reduce the cost of health care it's acting in ways that increase the number of ventilator cases - at around $1 million dollars a pop. We had a bike path go in and it cost $1 million a mile. I'd much rather wear a mask and have more bike paths.


Don't we all think of our inconvenience as a patriotic act? Sure, I look for ways I can be safer than social distancing without needing a mask, like riding on empty roads, but in the store we know that other peoples masks are leaking and so are ours. That may be the single largest hole in our defenses that the virus is working hard to exploit. How about New Zealand? They decided they had a common enemy and they worked together to defeat it. Can't a pandemic be something that overcomes divisions and where people are willing to make sacrifices? Have we forgot what the American people were will willing to do in WW2? Yes the risk is less, but so is the sacrifice of a mask. Compared to average deaths for the previous 5 years, week by week deaths are up significantly and those are expensive deaths. We shouldn't under rate the challenge to the world.


I kind of figure the more masks we wear the more companies we can open. Isn't that worth the price? The harder we hit the virus with things like masks the lower the impact on the economy.

Last edited by peterraymond; 05-05-20 at 02:44 PM.
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Old 05-05-20, 03:35 PM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by TheLizard View Post
Now that everyone else is wearing a mask, I refuse to wear one at all.
Just wow! ​​​
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Old 05-06-20, 03:18 AM
  #98  
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I'm only wearing a mask so that other people can't blame me for not wearing one.

On this side of the planet, they like to blame outsiders for everything.

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Old 05-06-20, 06:15 AM
  #99  
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Originally Posted by peterraymond View Post
I guess I just don't get this. It's not purely selfish. Is it reflexive anger?. Instead of doing something reasonable to conserve life it's acting in risky ways. Instead of supporting health workers it's acting to send more people their way. Instead of trying to reduce the cost of health care it's acting in ways that increase the number of ventilator cases - at around $1 million dollars a pop. We had a bike path go in and it cost $1 million a mile. I'd much rather wear a mask and have more bike paths.


Don't we all think of our inconvenience as a patriotic act? Sure, I look for ways I can be safer than social distancing without needing a mask, like riding on empty roads, but in the store we know that other peoples masks are leaking and so are ours. That may be the single largest hole in our defenses that the virus is working hard to exploit. How about New Zealand? They decided they had a common enemy and they worked together to defeat it. Can't a pandemic be something that overcomes divisions and where people are willing to make sacrifices? Have we forgot what the American people were will willing to do in WW2? Yes the risk is less, but so is the sacrifice of a mask. Compared to average deaths for the previous 5 years, week by week deaths are up significantly and those are expensive deaths. We shouldn't under rate the challenge to the world.


I kind of figure the more masks we wear the more companies we can open. Isn't that worth the price? The harder we hit the virus with things like masks the lower the impact on the economy.
Well I've been told the mask I was using is completely worthless anyway. And I've looked, but can't find anything better.
It's not like I'm getting close to anyone. 6 feet? 12 more like.

So mask wearing is just virtue signalling. Do I want to participate in this kind of "Oh, I'm being a good little citizen" psychological play-acting? No, I don't.
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Old 05-06-20, 02:17 PM
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Originally Posted by TheLizard View Post
Well I've been told the mask I was using is completely worthless anyway. And I've looked, but can't find anything better.
It's not like I'm getting close to anyone. 6 feet? 12 more like.

So mask wearing is just virtue signalling. Do I want to participate in this kind of "Oh, I'm being a good little citizen" psychological play-acting? No, I don't.

You can keep 12 feet away while shopping? Where is this store? I want to go to there.
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