illdrag0n

Seen this ALL over social media.

I'm always sceptical of these things, but i was wondeirng if anyone on BF actually has first hand experience.

Apparently it's 33% bicarb, which actively reduces lactic build up (both during and after hard efforts)

https://zwiftinsider.com/pr-lotion-1-year-later/

Sounds like smoke and mirrors, but theres a strong presense of positve reviews around it.

MoAlpha

Discussed in the General forum with a few anecdotes. My semi-expert take? While the chemical principle is sound, there is no way to get enough bicarbonate across the skin under normal circumstances to have any meaningful effect on performance. The “literature” cited by the company is certainly garbage.

seypat

Would this be considered a PED?

WhyFi

It doesn't seem like it'd be too hard to test this vs a placebo - one group gets rubbed down with this, the control gets rubbed down with a non-bicarb lotion. My cynical side suspects that many that feel they benefit from this are comparing it to nothing and that the processing of massaging it in is the most beneficial bit.

MoAlpha

WAnd look at what? Performance? Too variable. Plasma acid-buffering capacity? Should be able to contract that out for ~300k and get it done in 2 years. Not typical sports supplement company behavior.

WhyFi

Why couldn't you with a large enough sample size and observation period? If that's not enough to cut through that noise and show some gains, is it worth 35 bucks per tube?

seypat

What about via a syringe? Have your coach/teammate/buddy stab you in the a$$ at some dark and dirty location. This is strictly hypothetical, of course. I don't think any athlete would go that far. Heck, it might even be legal.

burnthesheep

I have a mean spirited opinion on this one. Masking the feeling of pain by "neutralizing the acid" doesn't mean the physiology is there to convert things over for energy.

So, with that take on it.......it's wuss-cream.

WhyFi

BigPoser

Wuss-cream and all, I use it on race days and on rides that are long and taxing. IMO, it works amazing. I have tested it to some degree by not using it on hard training days, and my legs just feel better overall afterwards. Less recovery time as well. If that makes me a wuss for using it, so be it.

burnthesheep

I was being funny. If folks want to use it, feel free obviously.

I've found recovery time to work better by eating the right things before/during/after a ride, doing proper stretching/rolling (even rolling is debatable), and being sure to include some anti-inflamatory foods in the diet around days that'll get out of the SS range of work and into the upper ranges.

If I were to use it, I'd probably go for training over competition. In competition I'd want to be sure my RPE matches my efforts and physiology so I don't wind up burning too big or to many matches. With something like that, I could totally see being able to go out too hard and winding up toasted.

Kind of like in a TT........"oh, this feels fine......let's dial it up 15w for a few miles". Then around 1/2 way........womp womp womp.

I've said it before, there was a great podcast on Fast Talk about this comparing Phelps to Armstrong and other athletes. Some who could tolerate massive amounts of it, some who didn't seem to carry as much, etc........On the Joe Rogan Experience with Dr. Attia.

I'd see this product working well for a person who makes a lot of it but can't seem to handle all of it yet if you drew that card in life.

MoAlpha

Two main reasons. The first is, as you imply, statistical power. The second is that before going after a “clinical endpoint” such as performance, it is important to demonstrate “target engagement,” i.e., that the thing you are testing is actually doing what it’s supposed to do to some body system. If you can’t show that, then any clinical effects are uninterpretable and much more likely to be random.

Sy Reene

The main effect from the zwift article is that it stops the 'burn'.. ie. perceived pain Seems to me easy for an individual to test all by themselves. Rub one leg with it, and the other without? Does one leg hurt before the other doing this? Swap legs getting the ointment the next ride.

MoAlpha

Bicarb has to be given IV. You can take it orally and it will alkalinize the blood, but only after reacting with the acid in your stomach, releasing a great cloud of CO2, and blowing your tummy up like a basketball.

Machka 

https://www.bikeforums.net/general-c...ing-cream.html

canklecat

I'd bet most of the perceived relief comes from the act of physically applying the cream. Even a brief, light massage temporarily relieves some muscle discomfort.

Besides improving circulation, the bodies of sentient creatures seem to respond positively to pleasant contact. A friendly pat on the back, warm handshake, holding hands with a loved one, any welcomed touch... these have a positive influence on our sense of well being and relief from pain or stress. So even a light, brief self-massage to apply a topical analgesic probably creates the same effect.

Put in a little more effort and you've got a real massage. That will probably feel pretty good and relieve some muscle discomfort even if we're using Crisco or hair conditioner.

I usually use rollers after hard rides and workouts. My favorite for legs is a heavy marble rolling pin I got as a kitchen decoration. It's functional. Between the cool marble and weight it's soothing and practically effortless on the tops of my thighs. Using it on the hamstrings and calves provides a minor arm workout.

Foam roller for the back, etc.

Doesn't matter whether I use topical analgesics with the rollers. End result seems to be the same.

The one topical analgesic I've tried in almost 20 of using them all that seems to work is Ted's Pain Cream. All the info is on their website (Ted's Brain Science) so I won't repeat it here.

Seems to work for me. Within a couple of weeks it relieved some pesky shoulder and neck pain aggravated by being hit by cars in 2001 and 2018.

But here's the complicating factor...

I massage the stuff in. So maybe it's the massage that's really working.

I couldn't reach the shoulder blade with my hands, so a few weeks ago I got a percussion massager with dual heads the size of golf balls, and a long handle. I dab the Ted's pain cream on the heads, then turn it on to massage it in around the shoulder blades.

I'd tried that before with a long handled vibrating massager and other topical analgesics. No lasting relief.

So, who knows. Seems to work for me.