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RIP daylight savings time

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RIP daylight savings time

Old 10-13-19, 08:41 AM
  #1  
sanmateoclimber
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RIP daylight savings time

I recently upped my volume to ten hours a week in the saddle on my road bike, and I've been loving it and seeing nice gains in my climbing and endurance. I'm looking to keep up the momentum through the darker months, and not lose much fitness going into the spring. I'm also generally interested in dabbling with power measurement, ftp, intervals; all that jazz. The only metric I'm currently working with is my strava time.

So, you've heard this one before, but anyone wanna talk indoor trainers?

Seems like the path of least resistance here (no pun intended) would be a kickr core/zwift setup. But I've heard negative things about the training programs on zwift in comparison with trainerroad. Zwift seems more "fun," immersive, etc; where as trainerroad seems less "fun" but more likely to yield positive results if I'm willing to work for them. Any thoughts on that trade-off, or my perception of it?

Other questions: kickr versus kickr-core? Seems like a relative newbie like myself would be just fine with the core, but I'm interested if anyone would vouch for the pricier model.

Also, do people consider the Climb worth it? A must-have that will change the course of your life forever? Or kinda unnecessary? I figure I'll get the basic set-up and then decide if I want to add it, but I'd be curious for any opinions. Climbing big ol' California hills is a favorite pastime of mine, so it definitely intrigues me.

Thanks!
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Old 10-13-19, 09:04 AM
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Zwift has a free, short trial.

See whether the social environment in Zwift matters to you, riding in the virtual world with others, doing group rides, races, etc. If you'd just as soon ride solo, I'd go with TrainerRoad.

TrainerRoad is much more focused than Zwift. On the other hand, any workout you can do in TrainerRoad you can do in Zwift. Erg mode workouts are almost a commodity. They're just a set of instructions to go at this percentage of FTP for a certain length of time. Having more workouts in one than in the other only means so much when you can only do one workout at a time. TrainerRoad holds your hand more through selecting a plan and working it than Zwift does. But it's still just a succession of workouts and you can do those workouts in Zwift as in TrainerRoad. I'm far from an expert witness, but I do wonder how much having fifty slight variations of a basic workout actually matters. I've heard from elite cyclists who endorse the plans they follow from TrainerRoad (they have a great podcast) and I've heard from elite cyclists who say they basically have a handful of workouts that they do all the time.

You can also control the trainer with TrainerRoad while riding in Zwift. You can also use free software like Golden Cheetah or MaximumTrainer (closing down but download still available) to download any of thousands of workouts and control the trainer while riding in Zwift.

Wahoo has just had refurbished Cores, with warranties, on sale from their site at $150 off. Other sales will likely be coming up in November.
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Old 10-13-19, 09:21 AM
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I build my own workouts on TrainingPeaks and then load them on Zwift. I did TrainerRoad for a bit and liked it okay, it just that developing an interval program isn’t rocket science and with a bit of reading, you could probably make one up yourself. I got a couple of books on training with power to get started.
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Old 10-13-19, 09:35 AM
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Lights are cheaper than a smart trainer.

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Old 10-13-19, 02:03 PM
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
Lights are cheaper than a smart trainer.

additional fact, daylight saving without the (s)

....
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Old 10-13-19, 02:47 PM
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There is absolutely nothing keeping you from tossing the trainer into ERG and doing a workout on Zwift flat routes of your own design or choosing.

Then you still have Zwift for non structured training as well. Or racing.

Fwiw, a lot of the zillion step workouts on any platform are a bit overcooked in complexity.
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Old 10-14-19, 03:33 AM
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Originally Posted by sanmateoclimber View Post
I recently upped my volume to ten
Keep going
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Old 10-14-19, 07:27 AM
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Originally Posted by OldTryGuy View Post
additional fact, daylight saving without the (s)

....
As explained by Richard Meade in the English Journal of the American National Council of Teachers of English, the form daylight savings time (with an "s") was already in 1978 much more common than the older form daylight saving time in American English ("the change has been virtually accomplished"). Nevertheless, even dictionaries such as Merriam-Webster's, American Heritage, and Oxford, which describe actual usage instead of prescribing outdated usage (and therefore also list the newer form), still list the older form first. This is because the older form is still very common in print and preferred by many editors. ("Although daylight saving time is considered correct, daylight savings time (with an "s") is commonly used.") The first two words are sometimes hyphenated (daylight-saving(s) time). Merriam-Webster's also lists the forms daylight saving (without "time"), daylight savings (without "time"), and daylight time. The Oxford Dictionary of American Usage and Style explains the development and current situation as follows: "Although the singular form daylight saving time is the original one, dating from the early 20th century—and is preferred by some usage critics—the plural form is now extremely common in AmE.
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Old 10-14-19, 07:34 AM
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
Lights are cheaper than a smart trainer.

Meanwhile, folks like me are in way better shape (probably??). I don't really see the whole riding outside in winter or in the dark as a badge of honor like some, and I race CX in some pretty gnarly conditions. Having my smart trainer allows me to do really focused riding when I don't have a ton of time to spend getting ready to go out. Apologies for the tone, it's just getting to the point of the year where people want to stay in shape over winter and there's many ways to achieve that, and I don't think it's necessarily helpful when year round outdoor people get on their high horse, especially when the crux of the original post is asking about indoor training.
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Old 10-14-19, 07:41 AM
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I don’t have a dog in this “fight,” but I didn’t see @datlas comment as critical or particularly smarmy. I think that he was simply suggesting that for some people outdoor riding, even in the dark, is preferable to indoor riding. I personally am tired of riding at night and having distracted riders drawn to my bike lights like moths to a candle.
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Old 10-14-19, 08:00 AM
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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
I don’t have a dog in this “fight,” but I didn’t see @datlas comment as critical or particularly smarmy. I think that he was simply suggesting that for some people outdoor riding, even in the dark, is preferable to indoor riding. I personally am tired of riding at night and having distracted riders drawn to my bike lights like moths to a candle.
I agree trainers have their role, and I actually have one for cold weather/unsafe riding conditions. My point was that if it's just the early darkness that is preventing one from riding, and the weather conditions are good, a light may be more fun than the trainer.
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Old 10-14-19, 01:43 PM
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I used to dread the onset of daylight savings time, but Sufferfest has changed that! There are many wats to maintain fitness through the winter. Having structure such as Sufferfest gives me is much better than sessions on the rollers getting bored to death. 30-45 minutes used to be my max, now 45 minutes is my min. Power is key.
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Old 10-14-19, 08:05 PM
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I have a Kickr Core. The things it doesn't have over a Kickr are not things I cared about. It doesn't have a cadence sensor, but I just bought one that I can use *off* the trainer. Ends up being better for me. Core only maxes out at 1500 Watts (I think) and the Kickr does something like 2200. I can't even do 1500 Watts, so no big deal. The Core also doesn't handle gradients as high and I don't care about that.

So... I saved a bunch of money.

I don't own a climb. Maybe it's a big, positive, difference. I wouldn't have thought I'd have liked Zwift as much as I did. But I really like it. I bought mine over Memorial Day weekend and mostly rode Zwift as it was stupid hot in Georgia this summer.

Some days I would connect to my laptop and connect to my 55" TV, set the "trainer difficulty" at 100% so I feel all the hills, and really dig into my work out. Other days I would do a structured workout it ERG mode. Another time I'd set the "trainer difficulty" to 0%, not connect to my TV, and surf on my phone while I did a recovery or endurance ride. A few times, during the recent Zwift Academy, I actually participated in some races and biked harder than I ever thought I would. In two of the four races I set new highs for my FTP. A third ride I did 95% of my FTP for an hour and felt like I was going to die. It hurt (but in a good way).

In other words, I give the Wahoo Kickr Core/Zwift combo a big thumbs up. In 4.5 months my weight is down 17 lbs to 188 and my FTP up 42 Watts from 240 to 282.
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Old 10-15-19, 08:15 AM
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I went through similar thing in Spring. After getting kickr core and zwift now during a week all my work outs are indoors.

I have all my workouts created in TrainingPeaks and import them in to zwift. With zwift I found I can do hour and a half to two hours without issues. There is enough visual and audio stimulation not go get bored. Also with this setup I found I can push harder and have more consistent work outs. The erg mode keeps you honest. haha

As for Kikr vs kikr core. I went with the core because at the end of the day I didn't need extra features. The higher power is not really necessary. I can't hit 1500 outdoors, let alone indoors. For climbing simulation. In zwift default is 50% anyway. The kickr does have wider and theoretically more stable base, but I haven't had issues with it with core. The kickr does that have the handle which would make it moving around easier, but I leave the trainer as is and rarely move it. So not a big issue.

Also if you have a dumb trainer, try it with it. You won't get a full experience, but you will get like 90%, and as was mentioned already zwift has a free trial.
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Old 10-17-19, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
As explained by Richard Meade in the English Journal of the American National Council of ...
BRB, grabbing popcorn!

Thanks for the thoughts all, got talked into a discounted (returned, but purportedly totally functioning,) kickr core yesterday at my LBS. Looking forward to testing it out!
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Old 10-17-19, 09:42 AM
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My setup:

Zwift piped onto flatscreen TV
E-Motion rollers
Chimaira Pandora station playing loudly
Bigass fan with standalone dehumidifier in the room

There are only a few Zwift workouts I do, as the training plans will burn you out (intensity too many times during the week). I make my own based off of proven workout plans.
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Old 10-17-19, 11:25 AM
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I had also been putting in some serious outdoor miles these past months, and just did a century a few weeks ago, so I have been dreading the move indoors. But like you, I concluded the Kickr Core and Zwift would be a good option, so I got a manufacturer refurbished Core directly from Wahoo, and have used it with Zwift five or six times now.

I think the trainer is great, but I would say the jury is still out on Zwift for me. I have trouble imagining that it could keep my interest for more than an hour. I use the AppleTV version on a large flatscreen a few feet in front of me. But I'm considering using my iPad instead and putting an interesting show or movie on the TV. I just don't find the fake Zwift worlds all that compelling.

One Zwift feature that may be coming soon is the ability to turn the virtual bike using your iPhone accelerometer with the phone mounted to your stem. That might make it feel more interactive and engaging.

I'm not giving up on Zwift yet, and have barely scratched the surface in terms of its features. But I would much rather be outside!
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Old 10-17-19, 11:27 AM
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
Bigass fan with standalone dehumidifier in the room
Agreeing with Cypress here that a fan is incredibly important! I accidentally forgot to turn on my fan during a workout this past week, and the sweating was horrible. You don't realize how much sweat evaporates in the wind when cycling outdoors until you try cycling indoors standing still without a fan.
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Old 10-17-19, 01:00 PM
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I started doing sunset rides last week.

I like the change. Far fewer cars on the road. However, I almost hit a deer on Wednesday. It moved just in time to let me squeeze behind it.

Heeding the warning not to ride beyond your headlight.
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Old 10-17-19, 01:10 PM
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Originally Posted by datlas View Post
I agree trainers have their role, and I actually have one for cold weather/unsafe riding conditions. My point was that if it's just the early darkness that is preventing one from riding, and the weather conditions are good, a light may be more fun than the trainer.
I feel a little safer riding (in traffic) at night because headlights tell you where cars are, before you could see the car in daylight. Specifically thinking about cross traffic.
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Old 10-17-19, 02:25 PM
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Just to further complicate your options, you could get Zwift and Today's Plan, with Today's Plan you can have it auto-generate an entire training plan to suit particular events, and, unlike Trainerroad, it automatically imports the workouts into Zwift.

When I first started indoor cycling, I tried Zwift's free trial and found it really hard, before even completing the (I think 25km?) I already decided to move on to Trainerroad. End of 2017-2018 I religiously stuck to the Sweet Spot base programs all winter, my FTP went from 180 watts to 241. Then I raced and rode hard all summer and did a combination of Zwift and Trainerroad or Zwift and Today's Plan from end of 2018 to 2019 and my FTP rose to 275 watts. I again raced and road hard this Spring, Summer, and Fall, and just tested my FTP, it increased to 292 watts (at 135lbs). This Winter I'm already planning on just messing around on Zwift (it's pretty fun now going for segment KOMs and doing A races) and occasionally loading up custom workouts from Training Peaks.

The common theme to my above story is Zwift, I find it incredibly fun, motivating, and worth every penny. The other workout subscription systems, Trainerroad, Today's Plan, BKool, Xert, to name a few, prescribe workouts with various methodologies. Problem is, I can find research and books that all contradict each other, 80/20 rule? Sweetspot training? Strength training for endurance? What works best for you is quite individual, it's hard for anyone to really say which to use. IMO get either Kicker (I'd get the core personally) get Zwift, and just have fun!

Oh, also, get a fan, a nice industrial fan and to answer your other question, buy the climb if you just have a bunch of $$$ to burn (I've demoed it, it's OK I guess).
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Old 10-19-19, 11:56 AM
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ERGdb -- 5000+ Cycling Workouts for Zwift, Plus Workout Creator

ERGdb has a growing library of over five thousand cycling workouts that can be downloaded in Zwift's .zwo format.

It also has a workout creator / editor that works with .erg, .mrc, and .zwo file formats, up and down.

It's free.

There is no shortage of individual workout resources for Zwift.
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Old 10-21-19, 04:39 PM
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Originally Posted by eja_ bottecchia View Post
I don’t have a dog in this “fight,” but I didn’t see @datlas comment as critical or particularly smarmy. I think that he was simply suggesting that for some people outdoor riding, even in the dark, is preferable to indoor riding. I personally am tired of riding at night and having distracted riders drawn to my bike lights like moths to a candle.
"Moth effect". It happens in daylight as well if you use a flashing red.
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Old 10-21-19, 05:24 PM
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Originally Posted by popeye View Post
"Moth effect". It happens in daylight as well if you use a flashing red.
Like hypnosis.
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Old 10-21-19, 06:51 PM
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There has never been any clearly collected evidence of phototaxis in humans. Target fixation, absolutely. But not "drawn towards the light," blinking or otherwise.
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