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Invasion of the E-bikes!

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Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Invasion of the E-bikes!

Old 10-16-19, 10:51 AM
  #276  
RShantz
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
The difference between your examples and using an ebike is that in those examples people are still expending their own energy to make it to the finish line at their chosen level of difficulty, while using an ebike with no physical impairment rationale is basically posing. I'm not "mad," I just think it's a weak look.
Would have to say I agree with that. But I also feel that way about those who do these charity rides and stop at every rest stop and chat for quite a while. I try to motivate those folks by telling them they are improving.

I guess I just don't like folks criticizing the e-bike folks so much. Everyone is different and has different goals in their riding. While the ebike doesn't provide the same level of exercise as a regular bike, it does provide more than sitting on the sofa. I really try to be positive to cyclists and encourage them to ride more no matter what type of bike they are on.

Who knows, the ebike guy who gets continual support from family/friends may increase his riding and he may decide to ride a regular bike. If criticized, he may just go back to the sofa?

Lastly, the ebike guys are crossing the finish line using their chosen level of difficulty.
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Old 10-16-19, 10:52 AM
  #277  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
A good friend ran a hard trail marathon this spring, while injured. You should have heard her complaining about the people who signed up for 5 and 10 K, and weren't worried about the cutoff time. Normally the sweetest person on earth without a negative thing to say about anybody, but her teeth turned into chainsaws.
I don't doubt that one bit. Sometimes it's hard not to criticize when you are so very different from others.
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Old 10-16-19, 10:54 AM
  #278  
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
So if a perfectly-ambulatory person used a road bike to do a charity run/walk, you'd be cool with that?
Like Seattle said, ebikes aren't Harleys.
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Old 10-16-19, 11:00 AM
  #279  
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Originally Posted by RShantz View Post
Like Seattle said, ebikes aren't Harleys.
That doesn't have anything to do with what I asked.
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Old 10-16-19, 11:09 AM
  #280  
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
That doesn't have anything to do with what I asked.
I don't think I understand what you are saying.

Are you saying an ebike is to a regular bike as a regular bike is to walking?

If so I can't discuss anything else with you as I feel that analogy is just too far removed from my reality.
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Old 10-16-19, 11:09 AM
  #281  
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Originally Posted by Notso_fastLane View Post
You do you. Let others do what they want.

It's like religion. You can worship jeebus all ya want, leave me to Satan and Cthulhu, and we can all be happy.
Like there's even a debate. Everyone knows Jesus rides a single speed.
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Old 10-16-19, 11:13 AM
  #282  
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Originally Posted by RShantz View Post
I don't think I understand what you are saying.

Are you saying an ebike is to a regular bike as a regular bike is to walking?

If so I can't discuss anything else with you as I feel that analogy is just too far removed from my reality.
My question was straight forward and in plain English. The pantomime you're dumping onto me in order to avoid the question speaks volumes.
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Old 10-16-19, 11:22 AM
  #283  
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
So if a perfectly-ambulatory person used a road bike to do a charity run/walk, you'd be cool with that?
I honestly don't understand where you are going with this.

But if didn't violate any rules of the organizers, I wouldn't have a problem. If it were a race obviously a bike would be prohibited from a running event. If a charity event & bikes were ok with the organizers, I wouldn't have a problem.

I doubt the runners would try to compete with the cyclist so don't know why they'd be mad.
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Old 10-16-19, 11:32 AM
  #284  
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Originally Posted by Seattle Forrest View Post
I think more often it's the case (when we're talking about 20 and 30 year olds) that modern life discourages exercise and even going outside, and an ebike is what people are comfortable with for their fitness level. Bikes are fun, whether there's a motor or not, even young people like having fun.

They're not going away, people like them, companies like selling them. It's in all of our best interest to accept that because life is better when you're not angry or annoyed.
It's as you say, not all impairments are visible, and thus I don't wish for lightning to strike down anyone just for being on an ebike. But it's pretty obvious that the huge influx of ebikes is not due to suddenly a lot of people with impairments being able to fulfill their wish to ride a bike. I'd say it's mostly the same crowd with disposable income but no wish for any cardio that's adopting hoverboards, electric skateboards, and scooters.

Some of us are annoyed not because those people are enjoying themselves, but that they're doing it in the same exact confines (read: organized events) of our road cycling hobby. I'm sure equestrians would be equally "thrilled" to share the same events as people in motorized vehicles.

Originally Posted by RShantz View Post
Lastly, the ebike guys are crossing the finish line using their chosen level of difficulty.
Their chosen level of difficulty is intermingled into the same ride the traditional non-assisted riders are doing, which is where I take issue. It is, as @Cypress wrote, like taking a road bike on the 5K walk/run, or what I see being more likely, a scooter. How would you feel if hypothetically someone were to participate in a stair climbing event for charity but hired a porter to carry them up every third flight? And then a few years later, it isn't just one person, but a significant percentage choose to forgo doing the "analog" stair climbing event because that's for masochistic chumps.

It's not all about catering to the crowd that wants an easy time. Maybe encouraging that behavior will discourage so-called analog participants. The events I've done have different routes and a walk/run option (even a virtual/remote option), and a natural grouping forms among the self-powered. You can ride/run with the fastest folks and congratulate each other crossing the finish line after setting a slew of new PRs. Or have friendly chats and exchange life stories with those around you while cruising/walking at a comfortable pace. Or encourage each other while huffing and puffing over a particularly nasty ramp and share in the relief and feeling of accomplishment of cresting that last climb. To me, the powered rider whizzing by other riders is just an anomalous element that doesn't mesh with any of those experiences, and I see no benefit in increasing that kind of participation.
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Old 10-16-19, 11:59 AM
  #285  
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Originally Posted by Cypress View Post
So if a perfectly-ambulatory person used a road bike to do a charity run/walk, you'd be cool with that?
Are there any charity runs that allow bikes? I doubt it, but I don't run much so I wouldn't know.

If it's a trail run, like single track, I wouldn't really be thrilled. A road run, it would depend on the specifics like the route, how many people, etc.

If I didn't like the rules, I could find a different run. Or start one myself.

I'd be a lot less concerned about ebikes in a cycling event. My concern isn't how they're propelled, it's that new cyclists don't have great bike handling or pack skills. Not everybody on an ebike is new, and plenty of cyclists on traditional bikes are new to the sport. I don't see blanket banning ebikes as a fix.
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Old 10-16-19, 12:09 PM
  #286  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
It's as you say, not all impairments are visible, and thus I don't wish for lightning to strike down anyone just for being on an ebike. But it's pretty obvious that the huge influx of ebikes is not due to suddenly a lot of people with impairments being able to fulfill their wish to ride a bike. I'd say it's mostly the same crowd with disposable income but no wish for any cardio that's adopting hoverboards, electric skateboards, and scooters.

Some of us are annoyed not because those people are enjoying themselves, but that they're doing it in the same exact confines (read: organized events) of our road cycling hobby. I'm sure equestrians would be equally "thrilled" to share the same events as people in motorized vehicles.



Their chosen level of difficulty is intermingled into the same ride the traditional non-assisted riders are doing, which is where I take issue. It is, as @Cypress wrote, like taking a road bike on the 5K walk/run, or what I see being more likely, a scooter. How would you feel if hypothetically someone were to participate in a stair climbing event for charity but hired a porter to carry them up every third flight? And then a few years later, it isn't just one person, but a significant percentage choose to forgo doing the "analog" stair climbing event because that's for masochistic chumps.

It's not all about catering to the crowd that wants an easy time. Maybe encouraging that behavior will discourage so-called analog participants. The events I've done have different routes and a walk/run option (even a virtual/remote option), and a natural grouping forms among the self-powered. You can ride/run with the fastest folks and congratulate each other crossing the finish line after setting a slew of new PRs. Or have friendly chats and exchange life stories with those around you while cruising/walking at a comfortable pace. Or encourage each other while huffing and puffing over a particularly nasty ramp and share in the relief and feeling of accomplishment of cresting that last climb. To me, the powered rider whizzing by other riders is just an anomalous element that doesn't mesh with any of those experiences, and I see no benefit in increasing that kind of participation.
I rode my C3 up to Slate Peak, at the end/top of the highest road in the state. (Sunrise on Rainier is the highest paved road in WA, Slate is at the end of a long, nasty dirt and gravel road.) When I got to the top, there was a small group of people, and one of them exclaimed "Holy crap!" I thought he was impressed at the effort I had just put in, but his next words were "Cervelo makes a cross bike now?"

Screw that guy, I still made it to the top, under my own power.

Somebody else doing a ride on an ebike doesn't change the fact that you did it without one. I mean, we all already know this, we're riding roads, and people drive cars on roads. If somebody hides a motor in a regular bike and pretends/claims to have ridden on their own power, then yeah that's a problem. But for ebikes to just exist, that's something we roadies need to get over.
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Old 10-16-19, 12:10 PM
  #287  
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I think if you have a cycling event and you allow assisted bikes you have to figure out where to draw the line. There are e-bikes that can go 40 mph, should they be allowed? How about small motorcycles? Electric motorcycles?

I'm all for charity rides getting participation and money and all but I wonder if allowing motors is a good idea. I know, there are idiots on regular bikes but the motor gives squids the power to attain speeds they might not be capable of otherwise.
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Old 10-16-19, 12:25 PM
  #288  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
How would you feel if hypothetically someone were to participate in a stair climbing event for charity but hired a porter to carry them up every third flight? And then a few years later, it isn't just one person, but a significant percentage choose to forgo doing the "analog" stair climbing event because that's for masochistic chumps.
I'd say the porters are the real heros.
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Old 10-16-19, 12:41 PM
  #289  
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Originally Posted by RShantz View Post
Would have to say I agree with that. But I also feel that way about those who do these charity rides and stop at every rest stop and chat for quite a while. I try to motivate those folks by telling them they are improving.

I guess I just don't like folks criticizing the e-bike folks so much. Everyone is different and has different goals in their riding. While the ebike doesn't provide the same level of exercise as a regular bike, it does provide more than sitting on the sofa. I really try to be positive to cyclists and encourage them to ride more no matter what type of bike they are on.

Who knows, the ebike guy who gets continual support from family/friends may increase his riding and he may decide to ride a regular bike. If criticized, he may just go back to the sofa?

Lastly, the ebike guys are crossing the finish line using their chosen level of difficulty.
Well, so are people in cars. But at least people in cars don't try to pretend they're athletes by disguising their cars as bicycles when they're not, and then having the gall to demand the same access rights and breaks provided under the law, as someone who actually supplies his own power to get around. Rights we as cyclists fought to get, which are now being usurped by legions of selfish fat slobs on electric motorcycles, pretending to be US, who don't know the first thing about handling a two-wheeled vehicle at speed, yet ride around on vehicles faster than any human can ever hope go under his own power.

I'm not saying ebikes should be banned or confiscated, or whatever I'm being accused of. I'm asking for one thing and only one thing. Let's keep the line that exists between human powered vehicles, and externally-powered vehicles, as it is and not try to blur it with all the various hysterics we've seen in this thread, which I don't need to rehash.
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Old 10-16-19, 12:54 PM
  #290  
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These crazy devices are all over downtown San Diego. They're on the sidewalk, they're going the wrong way down one way streets. It's like the wild west out here.
.
edit: maybe this thing isn't even an electric bike. Now that I'm looking closer, it's got no pedals.
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Old 10-16-19, 01:00 PM
  #291  
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Originally Posted by Nachoman View Post

These crazy devices are all over downtown San Diego. They're on the sidewalk, they're going the wrong way down one way streets. It's like the wild west out here.
.
edit: maybe this thing isn't even an electric bike. Now that I'm looking closer, it's got no pedals.
It's a scooter!!

I wonder if it has a CF steerer tube... Might asplode if so.
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Old 10-16-19, 01:12 PM
  #292  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
Well, so are people in cars. But at least people in cars don't try to pretend they're athletes by disguising their cars as bicycles when they're not, and then having the gall to demand the same access rights and breaks provided under the law, as someone who actually supplies his own power to get around. Rights we as cyclists fought to get, which are now being usurped by legions of selfish fat slobs on electric motorcycles, pretending to be US, who don't know the first thing about handling a two-wheeled vehicle at speed, yet ride around on vehicles faster than any human can ever hope go under his own power.

I'm not saying ebikes should be banned or confiscated, or whatever I'm being accused of. I'm asking for one thing and only one thing. Let's keep the line that exists between human powered vehicles, and externally-powered vehicles, as it is and not try to blur it with all the various hysterics we've seen in this thread, which I don't need to rehash.
That sounds like a self-solving problem.

Maybe we should line the bike lanes with punji sticks to help it along.
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Old 10-16-19, 01:50 PM
  #293  
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Originally Posted by surak View Post
It's as you say, not all impairments are visible, and thus I don't wish for lightning to strike down anyone just for being on an ebike. But it's pretty obvious that the huge influx of ebikes is not due to suddenly a lot of people with impairments being able to fulfill their wish to ride a bike. I'd say it's mostly the same crowd with disposable income but no wish for any cardio that's adopting hoverboards, electric skateboards, and scooters.
Exactly, fitness is hard, especially starting out, bike riding can be a slog. I started in 2013 and could basically just do 20mins at a time on a flat trail. But I started gradually increasing the time I spent, I spent the winter on a cheap fluid trainer, and within a year I did a century in 6hrs and did my first road race. To get actually aerobically fit requires up to 12 weeks of really consistent riding (at least a lot of training plans have 12 weeks as a base phase). People would rather take the easy way out than put in the work to improve, and that's in all aspects of fitness, so many people (including many here) really have no idea what type of work it takes to really get better fitness.
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Old 10-16-19, 02:20 PM
  #294  
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I'm starting to think this is a religious issue, maybe a holy war.
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Old 10-16-19, 07:28 PM
  #295  
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Four rides in, here are my impressions. Keep in mind I’m on an Orbea M30, which is a hybrid with different power settings (50/100/150 watts) and which can be ridden sans power as well (as if)...��

1- You will use the assist on the flat roads. I turned it off on the first ride, but each ride after that was too much fun rolling along in the big ring on L1.

2-You will not be emotionally destroyed by hills. Although you will still have to do a fair amount of work, you will no longer avoid the steepest hills.

3-You will ride more and therefore probably lose more weight. This supports Merxck’s axiom of ride lots: Since you won't feel trashed after each ride, you won’t inhale a pizza and two sodas, crash on the couch near motionless and recover over the next day. On the contrary, after a decent night’s rest, the next day will bring good legs. This, I absolutely love!��

4-You will not be transformed into Cancellara. Sorry, but with a max assist of 150 watts, you will not claim the KOM. I discovered this when a real dude came around me as I gasped my way up the last 15% gradient near the top of a gnarly 10% average climb.

All in all, this is just brilliant technology applied in a completely transformative way.
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Old 10-16-19, 08:58 PM
  #296  
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3-If you don't feel somewhat trashed did you get a good workout? Or was it just easy spinning? Good legs or legs that didn't do much work in the first place?

I'm sorry, but many of us use smart trainers to CREATE resistance so we get enough of a workout. ebikes do the opposite.

No pain, no gain.
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Old 10-16-19, 10:38 PM
  #297  
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Some people can be really judgemental.
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Old 10-17-19, 04:56 AM
  #298  
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"No Pain, No Gain" Love it!

Are you my high school football coach back from the dead?

He really hated it when we played The Ramones in the locker room...






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Old 10-17-19, 06:16 AM
  #299  
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Originally Posted by fried bake View Post
Sorry, but with a max assist of 150 watts, you will not claim the KOM..
Do you have any idea how this sport even works? Races, sprints, KOMs... are won and lost over 15 watts (/kg). I won a state time trial averaging 275 watts for an hour. You don't think a 150 assist would take a damn KOM? A 150 watt assist would've put me on the podium with the pros.
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Old 10-17-19, 06:23 AM
  #300  
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Originally Posted by Zaskar View Post
Do you have any idea how this sport even works? Races, sprints, KOMs... are won and lost over 15 watts (/kg). I won a state time trial averaging 275 watts for an hour. You don't think a 150 assist would take a damn KOM? A 150 watt assist would've put me on the podium with the pros.
YOU will claim the KOM. I will not—the “you” in the post refers to myself. YOU, Zaskar, are the dude that passes me on the 15% gradient.
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