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Finding an alternative rim?

Old 11-20-19, 06:36 AM
  #1  
Winfried
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Finding an alternative rim?

Hello,

The 28", 32 hole rim* on my city bike broke, but it seems only available to the public in 36 holes. The wheel uses 37-622 tires.

I'd like to buy an exact replacement and reuse the spokes, because they're OK and I don't run the risk of buying the wrong length**.

This is the first time I buy a rim and build a wheel myself. I case an exact replacement isn't available, will slightly different rims work as well?

Thank you.

* Schürmann SDR 19 disc 32 hole aluminum eyelets double wall rim
** Considering it's such a pain to measure and find the right spokes, why don't big brands like Sapim or DT Swiss, or someone else sell kits with different sizes, even fake spokes, just so people can find what size they need and order the actual spokes?

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Old 11-20-19, 07:35 AM
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The Schürmann web site shows that they manufacture SDR19C rims in 32 hole. These seem to be available from some German vendors . Schürmann don't seem to publish the ERD measurements on their site so it's impossible to positively determine that the SDR19 will use the same spoke lengths as the SDR19C, although there is a good chance that the rims are the same. Would you really want to replace the rim with the same one that broke, though. I'd advise you to measure the ERD of your existing rim and with that number, shop for rims with the same ERD. There should be many alternatives. I'm a fan of the Sun Ringle rims - for your bike look at the CR-18 and Inferno 23 rims.

Good luck.
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Old 11-20-19, 08:41 AM
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The 32 hole model is offered in Germany.

Maybe contact Schürmann to see if they have a US distributor?

https://www.zweiradnetz.de/laufrad/f...32-loch-kaufen
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Old 11-20-19, 09:23 AM
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Originally Posted by Winfried View Post
** Considering it's such a pain to measure and find the right spokes, why don't big brands like Sapim or DT Swiss, or someone else sell kits with different sizes, even fake spokes, just so people can find what size they need and order the actual spokes?
You have answered your own question as to why this isn't done; because you need to find the required length (which isn't too hard to do) and to make spoke kits for every combination, they would need to make virtually an infinite number of SKU's.

One thing you haven't mentioned, is this wheel the same as in the picture, with the belt drive? if not, just going to your nearest Decathalon (you have listed your location as Paris FR), and buying an off the shelf wheel would be quick and easy.

If it has the belt drive, you will probably be limited to keeping the hub, why the reluctance to swap the spokes, no mention of who the original wheel broke? were any spokes damaged due to this?

Really thinking if you need to answer any of the questions asked, you should be going to a LBS to get a replacement wheel, and getting them to do all the work, and just paying what they ask. This will get you back on the road, and maybe look at buying the parts to build another wheel so you can practice and learn how to do it in slow time?
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Old 11-20-19, 09:42 AM
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https://www.zweiradnetz.de/laufrad/f...32-loch-kaufen

Thanks, but this is the 26" version while I need a 28".

Mine broke after over five years, so it's not that bad.

The wheel has an Alfine 11 gear hub, which is why I can't just buy a basic, off-the-shelf replacement. Besides, it's an opportunity to learn.

I don't expect Schürmann to reply, but maybe I'll be lucky.

Without removing the spokes — I'd rather do this the same day I attempt to build the new wheel —, I came up with the following measurements (Actually, more like 18,blah mm).

Do I have to get the exact same size, or can the rim be a bit bigger/smaller?

Thank you.

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Old 11-20-19, 09:58 AM
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Does the sticker on the rim actually say "FOR DISC BREAK ONLY"?
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Old 11-20-19, 10:08 AM
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One possible way forward: remove one spoke and measure its length, plug the info for your hub and number of spoke crossings into spocalc, then you can work backward to find the ERD by changing it until it calculates the spoke length you have. Then you can search for other rims with that ERD (or close.)
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Old 11-20-19, 10:14 AM
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Originally Posted by Winfried View Post
...
"So close and yet so far."

Measure the ERD directly then go shopping for a rim. You'll find many to choose from.
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Old 11-20-19, 10:33 AM
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Originally Posted by Winfried View Post


Do I have to get the exact same size, or can the rim be a bit bigger/smaller?

Thank you.
Aim for a rim with an inside width of 18-20 mm
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Old 11-20-19, 10:53 AM
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The rim profile height isn't a reliable estimator of ERD. Because different rims have different depths of the tire bead seat location in relation to the top of the rim wall.

So for example, if the new rim has the exact same profile height, but the bead seat deeper down the wall, then the ERD of the new rim will be larger because the spoke holes are higher up and closer to the bead.

As the other people have already mentioned, the only way to find out the real ERD of your rim is to either measure your spoke lengths and calculate the estimated ERD from the hub dimensions, or measure the rim itself.

Here is a French seller of Sun Ringle rims but they're only 20". You might ask if they can source a larger diameter:
https://www.usprobikes.com/en/118-bm...e&orderway=asc
ERD chart. It's old, so I think you have to click the individual rim page to find out if they come in 622.
https://sun-ringle.com/wp-content/up...chart_2012.pdf
rim profiles
https://sun-ringle.com/wp-content/up...files_rev_.pdf

I've never used Sun Ringle.

Halo sells rebranded rims. Some of them are Kinlin, but you'll have to ask them for confirmation. The one called White Line classic is about the same profile dimension as yours. Shipping from UK is reasonable. I've never used Halo rims.
https://www.halowheels.com/category/..._diameter=700c

There is a German seller of Kinlin rims, the German and English version sometimes have different descriptions:
https://www.ginkgo-veloteile.de/gink...ang=0&cl=alist

Last edited by tomtomtom123; 11-20-19 at 11:16 AM.
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Old 11-20-19, 11:35 AM
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Originally Posted by Winfried View Post
https://www.zweiradnetz.de/laufrad/f...32-loch-kaufen

Thanks, but this is the 26" version while I need a 28".

Mine broke after over five years, so it's not that bad.

The wheel has an Alfine 11 gear hub, which is why I can't just buy a basic, off-the-shelf replacement. Besides, it's an opportunity to learn.

I don't expect Schürmann to reply, but maybe I'll be lucky.

Without removing the spokes — I'd rather do this the same day I attempt to build the new wheel —, I came up with the following measurements (Actually, more like 18,blah mm).

Do I have to get the exact same size, or can the rim be a bit bigger/smaller?

Thank you.

To just replace the rim you need the erd of the rim. With this dimension yo can find a replacement that can be close enough for a direct change-out.
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Old 11-20-19, 02:32 PM
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I think I'd just get a Sun Rims CR-18 and NEW spokes.
It's a very good rim for the money, suitable for tandems, without being excessively heavy.

Assuming you can find the "factory" rim, how much will it cost? The price may be "overvalued"??
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Old 11-21-19, 08:01 AM
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Originally Posted by ThermionicScott View Post
One possible way forward: remove one spoke and measure its length, plug the info for your hub and number of spoke crossings into spocalc, then you can work backward to find the ERD by changing it until it calculates the spoke length you have. Then you can search for other rims with that ERD (or close.)
Thanks for the tip.

I loaded Spocalc in LibreOffice Calc, allowed macros, but the ERD doesn't change while I change settings. Does the macro not run in Calc, or should I run it somehow?



OTH, when typing "622" as ERD and settings for the Alfine 11, Sapim does give a number very close to what I can measure (285-286mm):



I'll order a rim that's close to what I have, and try building the wheel with the spokes I have. If they're wrong, I'll find an LBS that can build it with new spokes.

A couple of questions:
1. Is the reason spokes may not have the same length on either side because a wheel must/might be dished differently?

2. Is it just impossible to use a long spoke, insert it into the hub and through a spoke hole using the desired lacing pattern (eg. cross by two), and use a marker to find the needed spoke length? That would be an easier way than measuring ERD, etc.


---

Edit: Socalc does work when changing the ERD, until it gives the expected spoke length in the "Output Data" section.


Last edited by Winfried; 11-21-19 at 08:05 AM.
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Old 11-21-19, 08:37 AM
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This one adds some spoke stretch to the spoke length. You can look in the "log" section to see how much stretch it adds.
https://www.wheelpro.co.uk/spokecalc/
This one gives the same spoke length but without the stretch. Both of these supposedly give the same results as spokecalc (minus the stretch).
https://kstoerz.com/freespoke/

However for my recent build, even though I used these 2 calculators and measured my rim accurately, I still got the spokes 1-1.5mm further deeper into the nipple than where I wanted them to be. It could be that the method I used to measure the rim added an extra millimeter somewhere (I stuck 2 spokes and nipples into opposite holes of the rim at the thread depth that I wanted, and measured the gap between the J bend, but I measured at the end of the bend, which is 1mm longer than at the middle of the elbow where the spoke length is measured to. So I think I accidentally added 2 extra mm to my ERD).

Also ERD depends on who is measuring and where it's measuring to, how deep the end of the spoke is inside the nipple. Some people want it at the bottom of the slot in the top of the nipple head. Other people want it at the very top of the nipple head. The difference will change the ERD by up to 3mm. If you use 12 or 14mm long Sapim nipples, they have the same thread length. 16mm nipples have 1 to 2mm longer threads, so you have to subtract your spokes by that amount if you want to prevent bottoming out. DT Swiss 16mm has longer threads than 14mm, and 14mm has longer threads than 12mm. I don't know the exact difference, but someone in another post said it was 1mm of difference between each, while some other websites claimed it was 2mm of difference.

Here you can see an example of different spoke end depths inside the nipple.
https://kstoerz.com/freespoke/tech-threadengagement.php

Last edited by tomtomtom123; 11-21-19 at 08:42 AM.
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Old 11-21-19, 09:02 AM
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Thanks.

No wonder wheel building is such a PITA
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Old 11-24-19, 06:22 PM
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Ryde Zac19. Usually sold as a Weinmann in US. Extremely common in northern Europe. Dimensions so close to the Schurmann it should work. tomtomtom123 above is correct but we are talking maybe 1 or 2mm of ERD difference and that will not change spoke length that much.
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Old 11-25-19, 10:39 AM
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Originally Posted by Winfried View Post
Thanks.

No wonder wheel building is such a PITA
It's a PITA the first time you do it. It makes more sense after a couple wheels.
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Old 11-25-19, 11:47 AM
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Originally Posted by 63rickert View Post
Ryde Zac19. Usually sold as a Weinmann in US. Extremely common in northern Europe. Dimensions so close to the Schurmann it should work. tomtomtom123 above is correct but we are talking maybe 1 or 2mm of ERD difference and that will not change spoke length that much.
Thanks for the tip.

Cheap, too.

https://www.bike24.com/p2315013.html
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Old 11-25-19, 05:43 PM
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Before I shell out more money for a TM-1 from Park Tool or even this one from X-Tools, has someone used those cheaper Chinese tension meters?

https://www.aliexpress.com/popular/spoke-tension-tool.html
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Old 11-25-19, 07:32 PM
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They all work on the same principle. The accuracy would depend on how good they calibrated the the scale units, quality of the spring, and how much play is in the hinge. I have the X-tools / Radon rebranded model and it seems ok, except you have to lubricate the spring. I added a drop of oil. I don't know how accurate is the calibration, but I just set the drive side rear spokes to the maximum tension on the spreadsheet (I think 140kg) where it feels really tight and there is a lot of spoke twist popping. However, the reading is off by +/-1 units if I measure with the tool either up, down, or horizontal due to the slight curvature of the spokes. I don't know if this is normal for all tools, or if it's because the spring in the hinge is weak (also I have 20" wheels so the curvature of the short spokes would be more pronounced).

I just use it as a reference to help me get a feeling for the tension. I still pluck the spokes with my fingernail and record the tone on a chart, along with spoke meter reading, which helps me to decide which groups of spokes to adjust to get the desired movement.

Last edited by tomtomtom123; 11-25-19 at 07:36 PM.
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Old 11-30-19, 03:23 PM
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Thanks for the feedback. I'll order a meter from X-tools.

Dropped by a bike co-op to rebuild the wheel using the DT Swiss rim, and successfully moved the spokes + hub onto the new rim,. The wheel seems OK for a start, although I ordered a home truing stand since I'll have to build a new wheel for my Brompton in a few months anyway.

I used this trick with scotch tape to save time, and avoid goofing up.

Turns out, the reason why calculators gave ~274mm as spoke length is that I didn't know lacing count started right from the elbow, which includes the very first cross on the flange itself, so the original wheel was really laced in three… which explains why I measured the original spokes at ~284mm.To screw nipples onto spokes, and, er, avoid dropping nipples into the rim use a spare spoke thusly. If you do lose one, you can recover it by holding the wheel above your head, and pull the nipple with a punch/awl.

Thank you every one for the help.
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