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Flying 200s

Old 09-26-19, 04:22 PM
  #101  
Baby Puke
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Your seat is also super forward, is it in UCI spec (behind BB 5cm for enduro/0cm sprint)?
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Old 09-26-19, 05:54 PM
  #102  
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Another thing to consider in relation to bar reach is the shape of the bars. Traditional bend bars require you to have your hands basically vertical at the front to the bend to take advantage of that reach. For an individual's position that may be fine. The newer carbon breeds like 3T bars allow you to use that reach with a flatter handhold.

It all depends on how you like your hand position. I found that when I have my hands more vertical I can't pull on the bars per se because it makes the front wheel want to turn. I get a better result with a flatter handhold where i can pull up more which adds to MY stability, but everyone's different. I've been through road bars, Deda Pista (reasonable shape but flat area way too short for my hands), Pro Vibe 7S (alloy version - nice bar but I wanted narrower), 3T Scatto (really nice bar that I bought for the same reasons as you - chasing reach) and am now on the BT bar. The long flat of the bar gives me more stability over the 3Ts when out of the saddle and suit me well, but it's all very personal.

It's very much worth trying to borrow different bars if possible and seeing how they feel for you under different positions on the bike. Standing starts, long and low aero, cruising in a bunch, and laying power down both in and out of the saddle like in a long sprint finish
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Old 09-26-19, 06:52 PM
  #103  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Your seat is also super forward, is it in UCI spec (behind BB 5cm for enduro/0cm sprint)?
Itís zeroed out now, I had it 5cm back for pursuit.

Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
Another thing to consider in relation to bar reach is the shape of the bars. Traditional bend bars require you to have your hands basically vertical at the front to the bend to take advantage of that reach. For an individual's position that may be fine. The newer carbon breeds like 3T bars allow you to use that reach with a flatter handhold.

It all depends on how you like your hand position. I found that when I have my hands more vertical I can't pull on the bars per se because it makes the front wheel want to turn. I get a better result with a flatter handhold where i can pull up more which adds to MY stability, but everyone's different. I've been through road bars, Deda Pista (reasonable shape but flat area way too short for my hands), Pro Vibe 7S (alloy version - nice bar but I wanted narrower), 3T Scatto (really nice bar that I bought for the same reasons as you - chasing reach) and am now on the BT bar. The long flat of the bar gives me more stability over the 3Ts when out of the saddle and suit me well, but it's all very personal.

It's very much worth trying to borrow different bars if possible and seeing how they feel for you under different positions on the bike. Standing starts, long and low aero, cruising in a bunch, and laying power down both in and out of the saddle like in a long sprint finish
Will definitely do that, trying a few bars, once I get the longer frame dealt with. I generally have gravitated to bars with a flat 45-ish transition section to nest my hands on, so I could reach as far forward as possible and stay comfortable. The rounded curves didnít feel natural to my hands. Will try to borrow and try some different options you described. Seat and bars are so key.

Good contact points equals happy rider. Happy rider equals faster rider.
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Old 09-26-19, 11:17 PM
  #104  
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Originally Posted by Super D View Post
Yes!


Originally Posted by Super D View Post
My major issue right now is that I'm bumping up against the limit of allowable specs for handlebar in front of front spindle plane, and my hands are way too far back. I've got long legs and monkey arms, so I have to get a longer frame next, because if I move from a 140 to 150 stem or change handlebars, the difference won't be enough to solve my fit problems, plus I wouldn't be within specs. Once I get the longer frame, I'll be able to stretch out with that, plus a better choice of bars like you and Carlton have suggested. Looking forward to it!

Here's how crunched up I am on a 58cm Felt with 140mm stem and the SC SL-80 bars:


This is that really tight roadie bike fit.

I'd like to see you on a bike 2 sizes larger. Maybe borrow one from a friend/teammate one day in training and take it for a few laps. Take some photos, too. (hopefully) no need to move their saddle or anything. Just see where a much larger frame puts you.

Lemme guess: You are over 6ft tall and that's a 55cm bike?

You need a bigger frame...and not one size larger either.
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Old 09-27-19, 12:43 AM
  #105  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Yes!




This is that really tight roadie bike fit.

I'd like to see you on a bike 2 sizes larger. Maybe borrow one from a friend/teammate one day in training and take it for a few laps. Take some photos, too. (hopefully) no need to move their saddle or anything. Just see where a much larger frame puts you.

Lemme guess: You are over 6ft tall and that's a 55cm bike?

You need a bigger frame...and not one size larger either.
Actually, I am just a shade under 6í1Ē, and this is a 58cm frame, I just have long arms like an orangutan and equally long legs (36.5Ē inseam). I feel like I need a 61-63cm top tube (but want a head tube height from a 56, long and low). No idea how Iíll find an affordable frame solution. Might be more realistic to just take a few inches off my limbs.
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Old 09-27-19, 12:57 AM
  #106  
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Originally Posted by Super D View Post
Actually, I am just a shade under 6í1Ē, and this is a 58cm frame, I just have long arms like an orangutan and equally long legs (36.5Ē inseam). I feel like I need a 61-63cm top tube (but want a head tube height from a 56, long and low). No idea how Iíll find an affordable frame solution. Might be more realistic to just take a few inches off my limbs.
Have a steel frame made. You'll be much faster on a round-tubed steel bike that fits very well than on an ill-fitting superbike.

Why? Because your body is the engine and an ill-fitting bike won't let your engine perform optimally. Also, because your body is 90% of the aerodynamic drag. So, optimizing your fit optimizes your aerodynamics.

You may go through a 2 or 3 frames over a couple of years until you find the perfect geometry for you. Then, if you want, spend big money on a carbon bike that has those dimensions.
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Old 09-27-19, 01:10 AM
  #107  
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Originally Posted by Super D View Post
Actually, I am just a shade under 6í1Ē, and this is a 58cm frame, I just have long arms like an orangutan and equally long legs (36.5Ē inseam). I feel like I need a 61-63cm top tube (but want a head tube height from a 56, long and low). No idea how Iíll find an affordable frame solution. Might be more realistic to just take a few inches off my limbs.
Size 62 Dixie Flyer? BTB Track ? Dixie Flyer Bicycles
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Old 09-27-19, 07:03 AM
  #108  
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SuperD, look at the DF4. They have long TTs and short HTs and are not super expensive.
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Old 09-27-19, 11:40 AM
  #109  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
Was looking at that, wonder if I can find a secondhand one.

Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
SuperD, look at the DF4. They have long TTs and short HTs and are not super expensive.
Their largest has only a 59 TT if Iím seeing their specs correctly. Out of my price range also. Kid just started college, my toy budget is non-existent these days.
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Old 09-27-19, 12:09 PM
  #110  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Have a steel frame made. You'll be much faster on a round-tubed steel bike that fits very well than on an ill-fitting superbike.

Why? Because your body is the engine and an ill-fitting bike won't let your engine perform optimally. Also, because your body is 90% of the aerodynamic drag. So, optimizing your fit optimizes your aerodynamics.

You may go through a 2 or 3 frames over a couple of years until you find the perfect geometry for you. Then, if you want, spend big money on a carbon bike that has those dimensions.
I kind of have to make whatever the next fame is last a few years, and I'm definitely on the tiny budget program, so this may take a while to find a solution, which isn't the end of the world.

I'm with you on the body position and fit understanding for aero and performance, I just didn't realize I should be looking at track frame sizes the same as I was with TT road frames. I just picked a similar geometry and 58cm size to my regular road bike (which was pretty hard to find, actually, most used track bikes I came across were smaller than 58); typical track newbie mistake no doubt.

Once I find a solution, I'll go through my normal routine of swapping out stems, bars, spacers, and tweaking saddle positioning, until the fit is dialed-in. That's a fun process, I enjoy the tweaking. At least now, I'll come into it having made several rounds of it on the smaller frame, so the range of tweaking will begin at a better starting point with the larger frame.
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Old 09-27-19, 12:49 PM
  #111  
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Originally Posted by Super D View Post
I kind of have to make whatever the next fame is last a few years, and I'm definitely on the tiny budget program, so this may take a while to find a solution, which isn't the end of the world.

I'm with you on the body position and fit understanding for aero and performance, I just didn't realize I should be looking at track frame sizes the same as I was with TT road frames. I just picked a similar geometry and 58cm size to my regular road bike (which was pretty hard to find, actually, most used track bikes I came across were smaller than 58); typical track newbie mistake no doubt.

Once I find a solution, I'll go through my normal routine of swapping out stems, bars, spacers, and tweaking saddle positioning, until the fit is dialed-in. That's a fun process, I enjoy the tweaking. At least now, I'll come into it having made several rounds of it on the smaller frame, so the range of tweaking will begin at a better starting point with the larger frame.
Actually, your track frame might be longer than your road frame because your races are shorter and you can endure an uncomfortable, yet aero, position during the race or training effort.


Years of wisdom (and spent money) talking: If you are on a budget and don't want to throw good money after bad:

- Find a top racer that has the same body type as you and races the same events. Copy their position as a starting point. Take note of their angles (back, hip, legs, arms). This may be difficult. Scour the internet for photos and screenshot videos where they are square to the camera.
- Find a good fitter (or bike builder) and experiment with fits on a fit bike to get the position above. It will be uncomfortable at first. Deal with it, but do make allowance for mortal features like Master's bellies and inflexibility.
- Copy core angles from top frames (e.g. LOOK R96) for optimal handling.
- Print out the dimensions from the best fit and take it to a good builder.
- Have the builder make it as stiff as you want it.
- Have it built.
- Enjoy.

This is exactly what I did and my fit was perfect and the bike handled like a Porsche 911. I later bought a Felt TK FRD that had a 1cm shorter top tube just to be bling. Previous bikes included: 2 custom Tiemeyers, Dolan DF3, LOOK 496, Felt TK1.

Go to any track in the world and you are subject to find a Master, Elite, Pro, Junior, hell anybody...that will ride circles around you using a steel frame. TTown Saturday morning races has some of the fastest masters in the world. Some ride steel frames...that fit them perfectly

The frame is not what makes a racer fast. It's simply the foundation to which bits are attached (cranks, wheels, handlebars, you...)

Bike companies make a big deal about how fast frames are and why you should spend money to get theirs...but the reality is that your body is 90% of the aero picture. Your front wheel is like another 5%. Everything else (frame, rear wheel, cranks, pedals, bars, seatpost, etc...) make up that last 5%.

All of the frame wind tunnel data that companies tout are the frame in there by itself. "It's 10% faster than the previous frame!!". Yeah, but the frame doesn't ride around by itself. The total aerodynamic package is only 0.1% faster when you put a person on it kicking up air when his/her eggbeater legs and the front wheel his chopping air like karate "he-YAHs!!".

Get a frame that fits, first. Period.

Anecdote:

Dan Holt (Team Type 1, back to back US Elite Points Race Champ (lapping the field both years)) was local to DLV. At one time, he didn't have a track bike. Every Wednesday night, he'd borrow a loaner bike that's used for beginners (round-tubed steel Fuji Track, 32 spoke wheels, crap tires and everything). He'd then borrow a 13t cog then put on his pedals. He'd then proceed to wipe up the P/1/2 field for the night. One day, he forgot his pedals and used the old-school cage+nylon straps. Same result.

The frame materials aren't holding anyone back from performing, folks. Especially, not us

The key is to:

- Make sure it fits how you want to fit on it.
- Make sure that there aren't any functional issues (flexy, slipping dropouts, slipping seatpost, etc...)
- Ride it like you stole it.

Last edited by carleton; 09-27-19 at 01:03 PM.
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Old 09-27-19, 08:13 PM
  #112  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
Actually, your track frame might be longer than your road frame because your races are shorter and you can endure an uncomfortable, yet aero, position during the race or training effort.


Years of wisdom (and spent money) talking: If you are on a budget and don't want to throw good money after bad:

- Find a top racer that has the same body type as you and races the same events. Copy their position as a starting point. Take note of their angles (back, hip, legs, arms). This may be difficult. Scour the internet for photos and screenshot videos where they are square to the camera.
- Find a good fitter (or bike builder) and experiment with fits on a fit bike to get the position above. It will be uncomfortable at first. Deal with it, but do make allowance for mortal features like Master's bellies and inflexibility.
- Copy core angles from top frames (e.g. LOOK R96) for optimal handling.
- Print out the dimensions from the best fit and take it to a good builder.
- Have the builder make it as stiff as you want it.
- Have it built.
- Enjoy.

This is exactly what I did and my fit was perfect and the bike handled like a Porsche 911. I later bought a Felt TK FRD that had a 1cm shorter top tube just to be bling. Previous bikes included: 2 custom Tiemeyers, Dolan DF3, LOOK 496, Felt TK1.

Go to any track in the world and you are subject to find a Master, Elite, Pro, Junior, hell anybody...that will ride circles around you using a steel frame. TTown Saturday morning races has some of the fastest masters in the world. Some ride steel frames...that fit them perfectly

The frame is not what makes a racer fast. It's simply the foundation to which bits are attached (cranks, wheels, handlebars, you...)

Bike companies make a big deal about how fast frames are and why you should spend money to get theirs...but the reality is that your body is 90% of the aero picture. Your front wheel is like another 5%. Everything else (frame, rear wheel, cranks, pedals, bars, seatpost, etc...) make up that last 5%.

All of the frame wind tunnel data that companies tout are the frame in there by itself. "It's 10% faster than the previous frame!!". Yeah, but the frame doesn't ride around by itself. The total aerodynamic package is only 0.1% faster when you put a person on it kicking up air when his/her eggbeater legs and the front wheel his chopping air like karate "he-YAHs!!".

Get a frame that fits, first. Period.

Anecdote:

Dan Holt (Team Type 1, back to back US Elite Points Race Champ (lapping the field both years)) was local to DLV. At one time, he didn't have a track bike. Every Wednesday night, he'd borrow a loaner bike that's used for beginners (round-tubed steel Fuji Track, 32 spoke wheels, crap tires and everything). He'd then borrow a 13t cog then put on his pedals. He'd then proceed to wipe up the P/1/2 field for the night. One day, he forgot his pedals and used the old-school cage+nylon straps. Same result.

The frame materials aren't holding anyone back from performing, folks. Especially, not us

The key is to:

- Make sure it fits how you want to fit on it.
- Make sure that there aren't any functional issues (flexy, slipping dropouts, slipping seatpost, etc...)
- Ride it like you stole it.
Sage advice, and well respected. I just canít get a custom frame made or anything else that isnít cheap for quite some time. I sold my mountain bike to invest in track racing wheels and other bits to finish the race build. I will be patient until I can put resources toward a frame. College education for the kids is number one priority for spending right now.
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Old 09-28-19, 01:21 AM
  #113  
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Originally Posted by Super D View Post
Sage advice, and well respected. I just canít get a custom frame made or anything else that isnít cheap for quite some time. I sold my mountain bike to invest in track racing wheels and other bits to finish the race build. I will be patient until I can put resources toward a frame. College education for the kids is number one priority for spending right now.
That's understandable.

The race season is over. If you are gonna be all-in for track, then spend the winter nerding-out on the stuff above. You can spend the time and effort learning what dimensions you do want without spending the coin on the new frame yet.

Starts saving and when you are ready, you already know the dimensions you want. You aren't gonna grow any taller
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Old 09-28-19, 08:05 AM
  #114  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
That's understandable.

The race season is over. If you are gonna be all-in for track, then spend the winter nerding-out on the stuff above. You can spend the time and effort learning what dimensions you do want without spending the coin on the new frame yet.

Starts saving and when you are ready, you already know the dimensions you want. You aren't gonna grow any taller
Yep, good plan.
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Old 09-28-19, 12:18 PM
  #115  
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
...Starts saving and when you are ready, you already know the dimensions you want. You aren't gonna grow any taller
Been thinking overnight about this. Assuming my time for ďtheĒ frame is a ways off, a good bridge solution may be to get the fit figured out by replicating position of other similarly built higher level racers, as you recommended, sell a set of wheels and get a larger-size low-cost aluminum frame under $600...just so I can at least get more stretched out since Iím so crunched up currently. I can get close as possible to the fit needed with stems, bars and saddle positions and get by for a while. Had I chosen a 61 cm Felt TK3 to begin with instead of a 58, thatís where Iíd be now. So I can re-start with that change up to a larger frame, and then continue saving for a long-term keeper which is more specific to me. Sound reasonable?

If so, comparing the Felt TK 2/3 frame to the Bianchi Super Pista, and other aluminum options which have sizes of 60cm and above, what are your thoughts on best options and why?
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Old 09-28-19, 02:01 PM
  #116  
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What about a Fuji Elite frame?

They go up to 61.
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Old 09-28-19, 03:41 PM
  #117  
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
What about a Fuji Elite frame?

They go up to 61.
Geometry isnít doable for my monkey arms, the TT is too short.
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Old 09-28-19, 11:00 PM
  #118  
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I have a Jerry Peng. It is an EBay frame. I was watching a World Cup event from New Zealand and some some riders on this frame and it was also mentioned in an affordable frame thread here. It is around $550.00, has a 59.5 tt and weighs about 17lbs as pictured.
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Old 09-29-19, 03:31 AM
  #119  
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Originally Posted by Super D View Post
Been thinking overnight about this. Assuming my time for ďtheĒ frame is a ways off, a good bridge solution may be to get the fit figured out by replicating position of other similarly built higher level racers, as you recommended, sell a set of wheels and get a larger-size low-cost aluminum frame under $600...just so I can at least get more stretched out since Iím so crunched up currently. I can get close as possible to the fit needed with stems, bars and saddle positions and get by for a while. Had I chosen a 61 cm Felt TK3 to begin with instead of a 58, thatís where Iíd be now. So I can re-start with that change up to a larger frame, and then continue saving for a long-term keeper which is more specific to me. Sound reasonable?
That sounds reasonable.


Originally Posted by Super D View Post
If so, comparing the Felt TK 2/3 frame to the Bianchi Super Pista, and other aluminum options which have sizes of 60cm and above, what are your thoughts on best options and why?
I'm not that familiar with options anymore. Sorry.

Fifty Point One makes some nice options, but they might be out of your price range. The Hoy Bikes Fiorenzuola was on my short list before I had my steel frame made. Not sure if that's still available or not.
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Old 09-29-19, 06:28 PM
  #120  
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Originally Posted by Super D View Post
Been thinking overnight about this. Assuming my time for “the” frame is a ways off, a good bridge solution may be to get the fit figured out by replicating position of other similarly built higher level racers, as you recommended, sell a set of wheels and get a larger-size low-cost aluminum frame under $600...just so I can at least get more stretched out since I’m so crunched up currently. I can get close as possible to the fit needed with stems, bars and saddle positions and get by for a while. Had I chosen a 61 cm Felt TK3 to begin with instead of a 58, that’s where I’d be now. So I can re-start with that change up to a larger frame, and then continue saving for a long-term keeper which is more specific to me. Sound reasonable?

If so, comparing the Felt TK 2/3 frame to the Bianchi Super Pista, and other aluminum options which have sizes of 60cm and above, what are your thoughts on best options and why?
Look at reach numbers rather than bare frame "sizes". The reach number will tell you if you are actually getting a longer bike or not. There's stacks of "big" sized frames out there that aren't actually all that big. I went custom Duratec for myself after working my way to something close to what I need. Apparently it's the biggest non-tandem frame they'd ever made Looking at the figures for my bike though (470mm reach), it's only a big larger than a 62cm Dixie Flyer (465 reach). I was looking at a Dixie, but it was taking a long time to happen and I ended up with my custom alloy instead

The Felt 58cm has a reach of 421mm and the 61cm Bianchi works out to be pretty much the same so you won't gain anything there. The big Felt takes you out to 438mm and there's a few frames around that size IIRC like the Fuji mentioned above. Then there are a very small few frames that reach up towards the 460mm mark

Last edited by brawlo; 09-29-19 at 06:40 PM.
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Old 10-04-19, 10:50 AM
  #121  
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
Look at reach numbers rather than bare frame "sizes". The reach number will tell you if you are actually getting a longer bike or not. There's stacks of "big" sized frames out there that aren't actually all that big. I went custom Duratec for myself after working my way to something close to what I need. Apparently it's the biggest non-tandem frame they'd ever made Looking at the figures for my bike though (470mm reach), it's only a big larger than a 62cm Dixie Flyer (465 reach). I was looking at a Dixie, but it was taking a long time to happen and I ended up with my custom alloy instead

The Felt 58cm has a reach of 421mm and the 61cm Bianchi works out to be pretty much the same so you won't gain anything there. The big Felt takes you out to 438mm and there's a few frames around that size IIRC like the Fuji mentioned above. Then there are a very small few frames that reach up towards the 460mm mark
Good info, thank you. And I'm also looking at top tube lengths C-C as well, to factor in. Surprising to me that more track bikes aren't stretched-out in their geometry. Seems the aero position has evolved much faster than frame design, no?
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Old 10-04-19, 03:11 PM
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Originally Posted by Super D View Post
Good info, thank you. And I'm also looking at top tube lengths C-C as well, to factor in. Surprising to me that more track bikes aren't stretched-out in their geometry. Seems the aero position has evolved much faster than frame design, no?
That depends where you look. The reality is that the vast majority of track bikes wonít be ridden like that so itís a small market to sell to. At the top of the tree where the real development happens, long and low is common, but at a price $$$$$.

Iíd look at seat tube angle over TT length. The STA will be the biggest dictator of whether you can get your saddle in your desired position/setback, especially as your legs get longer. Look at Dolanís DF4 geo. Relatively short TT but geo gives them good reach numbers to stretch out a bit
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Old 11-11-19, 02:05 AM
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Originally Posted by brawlo View Post
That depends where you look. The reality is that the vast majority of track bikes wonít be ridden like that so itís a small market to sell to. At the top of the tree where the real development happens, long and low is common, but at a price $$$$$.

Iíd look at seat tube angle over TT length. The STA will be the biggest dictator of whether you can get your saddle in your desired position/setback, especially as your legs get longer. Look at Dolanís DF4 geo. Relatively short TT but geo gives them good reach numbers to stretch out a bit
Ended up getting a barely used DF 60cm. I've only had the bike a week and ridden once so far with my 140mm stem, feels much better, I was so crunched up on the Felt. The frame feels quite solid and stable. I'm going to take some time and experiment with the fit and dial in sprint and pursuit setups. Have a 150mm stem on the way. Wondering what a good affordable bar option might be which has long reach but shallow drop. No complaints so far with the Zipp SC SL 80 bar I have now, but curious to find a better shape for sprinting, still retain the ergo hand fit, and get slightly more reach but without more drop.
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