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Tubeless bead damage will sealant help it?

Old 02-06-19, 05:33 PM
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Tubeless bead damage will sealant help it?


It looks like I damaged the bead on this Hutchinson Atom 23mm tubeless tire. I had mounted it and dismounted it several times and may have used plastic tire levers damaging this one spot.

Is this too much of an opening to create a proper tubeless seal? Is there any way to superglue or epoxy it?

Thanks for any help,



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Old 02-06-19, 06:59 PM
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Ya,
Superglue that together and then epoxy your front rim crack.... put it all together as your front wheel for high speed descents.
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Old 02-06-19, 07:21 PM
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It is hard to tell how bad the damage is from the photo.

If it is just that flap, then it may seal just fine.

If you have any broken cords, then the tire is trashed.
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Old 02-07-19, 11:18 AM
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The epoxies I am familiar with don't play well with rubber and flexible parts. maybe something like tube patch glue and back it with patch......

as to workability and safety.... no clue
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Old 02-07-19, 01:36 PM
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Once you get your rims straightened out, just mount up the tire and see if it seals.

I'd consider moving the tire to the rear, but it could be a pain to swap front/rear unless you really need to do it.

You could, of course, just keep the tire for the next time you have to mount a rear tire, and get a new front tire.
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Old 02-07-19, 02:09 PM
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Best tire goes on the Front..

You have to buy new stuff , get used to it..
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Old 11-13-19, 12:35 PM
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Update: I got the Hutchinson Atom tubeless front tire to mount! I am more experienced now with mounting tight bead tires without damaging them. I dismounted this tire, put a very light coating of silicone grease in the bead shelf then remounted the Hutchinson Atom tire. I then gave it a burst of 140 psi from my pressure canister after I put about 45 ml of Effetta Mariposa foaming latex sealant into the tire before mounting that last bit of unmounted tire bead with my gloved hands. It popped into place in a most satisfying way and as of last night when I went to bed, it was holding air fine.

This is not yet a zombie thread, just my very slow time frame for resolving mechanical roadblocks that I encounter.
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Old 11-13-19, 12:49 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
Update: I got the Hutchinson Atom tubeless front tire to mount! I am more experienced now with mounting tight bead tires without damaging them. I dismounted this tire, put a very light coating of silicone grease in the bead shelf then remounted the Hutchinson Atom tire. I then gave it a burst of 140 psi from my pressure canister after I put about 45 ml of Effetta Mariposa foaming latex sealant into the tire before mounting that last bit of unmounted tire bead with my gloved hands. It popped into place in a most satisfying way and as of last night when I went to bed, it was holding air fine.

This is not yet a zombie thread, just my very slow time frame for resolving mechanical roadblocks that I encounter.
That's a great idea!
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Old 11-13-19, 01:04 PM
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Originally Posted by AnkleWork View Post
That's a great idea!
Thanks! The rim bead that accepts the tire bead was a little dry. With the silicone grease I could just tell the the tire bead would make a better seal. I used a little plastic woodworking glue spreader mini spatula to apply tiny blobs of the clear grease at intervals around the circumference of each side of the rim then used an acid brush to spread it out. While doing this I scraped away at a few spots of dried sealant with my little plastic spatula. This was able to pop off the dried sealant that could have interfered with a proper bead seal. Just having this thing hold air is pretty motivational - now I can move on to completing this vintage Klein Quantum and proceed to test riding it!
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Old 11-13-19, 10:10 PM
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Not sure that you want to apply lubricant to the tire bead. Most of the things you put on tires and rims to mount them lubricate while wet, then dry. This gives you a good frictionally stable joint. Silicon grease doesn't dry, nor does it wash off (ask anyone who's tried to paint a Silicon grease-contaminated frame).

My next kvetch () is the broken bead. If the bead cord is truly cut or broken, there is no glue that can fix it. Kevlar can have a tensile strength of half a million psi. Epoxy has a tensile strength of 3500 psi or so.

If the bead is broken, and the grease lubricates the bead sliding, it could fail catastrophically. Let us know if it holds, but I'd be very leary (as in, I wouldn't do it) of riding at speed with a grease-lubricated tire with a broken bead.

BTW, silicon grease is compatible with most rubbers (not fluorosilicone or silicon rubber). So that's perhaps a little bit of relief.
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Old 11-14-19, 04:06 AM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
Not sure that you want to apply lubricant to the tire bead. Most of the things you put on tires and rims to mount them lubricate while wet, then dry. This gives you a good frictionally stable joint. Silicon grease doesn't dry, nor does it wash off (ask anyone who's tried to paint a Silicon grease-contaminated frame).

My next kvetch () is the broken bead. If the bead cord is truly cut or broken, there is no glue that can fix it. Kevlar can have a tensile strength of half a million psi. Epoxy has a tensile strength of 3500 psi or so.

If the bead is broken, and the grease lubricates the bead sliding, it could fail catastrophically. Let us know if it holds, but I'd be very leary (as in, I wouldn't do it) of riding at speed with a grease-lubricated tire with a broken bead.

BTW, silicon grease is compatible with most rubbers (not fluorosilicone or silicon rubber). So that's perhaps a little bit of relief.
Thanks for responding. I will road test this & report back here. One idea I had about the use of the grease and the sealant together is that, if it is reasonably airtight for the life of the tire, changing to a new tire will be potentially easier keeping the rim internals (bead shelf) free from crunchy sealant residue. As for the split in the bead, it doesnt extend up on the sidewall side, just on the squares bottom of the bead. Im crossing my fingers and in the future, I think that my tight tire mounting technique has improved greatly.
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Old 11-14-19, 09:30 AM
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It may be that the bead is just nicked (and that the bead wire or Kevlar is not broken). And it may be that the mechanical joint (that is, the bead and bead seat) is so geometrically stable that it holds great. My main point is that applying grease to a tire bead is normally a really bad idea because while you want the rim to be slippery when you install the tire, you want the rim to not be slippery when you ride it. But I hope it works for you.

I worked for a bike shop for several years whilst in high school and college. A long time ago! So when I tried recently to mount (that is, get the tire on) and seat (that is, get the bead to mesh with the rim to form an air-tight seal) I found it very difficult. I was very frustrated.

For mounting, I found that making sure that I got the bead on one side of the tire into the little well in the center of the rim was critical in having enough clearance to mount the tire around to the other side. On the seating, my ego was a bit restored when my local LBS couldn't easily seat the tire. Even with their big old compressor and air tank. They finally got it. I found that by lubricating the tire and rim with soapy water, and removing the presta core, and using a short hose (lower resistance than a long hose) between a tank that I'd set up to 130psi, I could finally seat my tire. Then I'd remove the inflator head, let the air leak out all the are (while retaining the bead seat) and then adding sealant using a syringe and tube. Reinstall the core, inflate to pressure, and ... no leaks, good seating, and tire concentric with rim.

But the big learning was to ensure that the bead opposite the side you're trying to get over the rim is in the center well of the rim, to give you maximum clearance.

Sounds like you are on your way - I hope you get a few thousand safe miles on that tire. Let us know if not.

Last edited by WizardOfBoz; 11-14-19 at 11:11 AM.
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Old 11-14-19, 09:33 AM
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Ya, put that tire on your front wheel and report back how it goes.
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Old 11-14-19, 11:08 AM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
It may be that the bead is just nicked (and that the bead wire or Kevlar is not broken). And it may be that the mechanical joint (that is, the bead and bead seat) is so geometrically stable that it holds great. My main point is that applying grease to a tire bead is normally a really bad idea because while you want the rim to be slippery when you install the tire, you want the rim to not be slippery when you ride it. But I hope it works for you.

I worked for a bike shop for several years whilst in high school and college. A long time ago! So when I tried recently to mount (that is, get the tire on) and seat (that is, get the bead to mesh with the rim to form an air-tight seal) I was very frustrated.

For mounting, I found that making sure that getting the bead on one side of the tire into the little well in the center of the rim was critical in having enough clearance to mount the tire around to the other side. On the seating, my ego was a bit restored when my local LBS couldn't easily seat the tire. Even with their big old compressor and air tank. They finally got it. I found that by lubricating the tire and rim with soapy water, and removing the presta core, and using a short hose (lower resistance than a long hose) between a tank that I'd set up to 130psi, I could finally seat my tire. Then I'd remove the inflator head, let the air leak out all the are (while retaining the bead seat) and then adding sealant using a syringe and tube. Reinstall the core, inflate to pressure, and ... no leaks, good seating, and tire concentric with rim.

But the big learning was to ensure that the bead opposite the side you're trying to get over the rim is in the center well of the rim, to give you maximum clearance.

Sounds like you are on your way - I hope you get a few thousand safe miles on that tire. Let us know if not.
My air compressor inflator is going to need some servicing before I can get the best use out of it for these types of jobs. I purchase items from Harbor Freight that work for about a year or two but anything from Harbor Freight with plastic or rubber parts in it, that is supposed to hold air - just fails miserably after about year 3. I swear, Chinese rubber products must have much lower quality compared to USA made counterparts, but I digress...

I read some good things about this compact inflator - “Airshot” so I purchased one for a slightly pricey (for me) $55.

Last edited by masi61; 11-14-19 at 11:15 AM.
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Old 11-14-19, 11:14 AM
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Originally Posted by trailangel View Post
Ya, put that tire on your front wheel and report back how it goes.
Will do!

The bike is almost finished, the tubeless Hutchinson 21mm Atom (front) and 23mm Fusion 5 All Season could get put into action very soon for some winter riding.


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Old 11-14-19, 12:31 PM
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Hey, Masi, that Klein looks great. Does that Ritchey fork have a 1" steerer? How do you like the Ritchey fork?

Last edited by WizardOfBoz; 11-14-19 at 12:42 PM.
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Old 11-15-19, 04:24 AM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
Hey, Masi, that Klein looks great. Does that Ritchey fork have a 1" steerer? How do you like the Ritchey fork?
Thanks! This is a cheapie build. The parts are mostly used or purchased at good prices off eBay. I have never ridden this bike. The Ritchey Carbon fork does, indeed have a 1 steer tube. The steerer is either steel or aluminum, Id have to check. I think it will work well though. The Klein frame is about to get an external bottom bracket (Phil Wood) 24mm Hollowtech Shimano conversion so I can run a used Dura Ace 7800 crank.
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Old 11-15-19, 09:54 AM
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Originally Posted by WizardOfBoz View Post
Hey, Masi, that Klein looks great...
Mission accomplished!
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Old 11-15-19, 10:02 AM
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Use Dawn dish soap instead of silicone grease, please.

Silicon NEVER dries out (ever paint a bike frame that had WD40 on it?) and will let the bead pop OFF just as easily as it popped ON, perhaps even at an inopportune time.

Dawn dries out, seals, helps clean excess sealant off the skinwalls, and costs $1.

For filling tubeless I use the old-fashioned Silca brass pump head, for straight shot of air.
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Old 11-17-19, 02:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Reynolds 531 View Post
Use Dawn dish soap instead of silicone grease, please.

Silicon NEVER dries out (ever paint a bike frame that had WD40 on it?) and will let the bead pop OFF just as easily as it popped ON, perhaps even at an inopportune time.

Dawn dries out, seals, helps clean excess sealant off the skinwalls, and costs $1.

For filling tubeless I use the old-fashioned Silca brass pump head, for straight shot of air.
I appreciate the tip about Dawn dish soap. I'll probably try this hack next time.

But for the mean time, I have already installed the tire using the silicon grease, so I will road test this tire. BTW: the tire never popped ON easily, it took quite a bit of technique by me with my gloved hands to wrangle the last bit of bead over the rim sidewall.

As for your tip re: using a brass Silca pump head, are you saying that you rigged up an air compressor presta chuck with the Silca?

Eventually I will update my air compressor system, but for now my trusty Zefal Husky pump (with upgraded Topeak hose) and the pictured pressure canister seem to be doing the job well.
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Old 11-17-19, 07:19 PM
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No need for dish soap, bubble juice is the perfect tubeless tire mounting solution. Crazy cheap (99 a quart,) slippery when wet, but dries slightly tacky, with very low residue.

Also, if the OP had indeed cut or damaged the kevlar bead, the tire would have mounted quite easily, and then immediately blown off the rim the instant he put air into it. The damage is cosmetic.
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Old 11-18-19, 03:13 PM
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Originally Posted by masi61 View Post
I appreciate the tip about Dawn dish soap. I'll probably try this hack next time.



As for your tip re: using a brass Silca pump head, are you saying that you rigged up an air compressor presta chuck with the Silca?
Silca pump head on compressor AND on mountain bike pump (lots of air in each pump stroke compared to skinny road pump)
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Old 11-18-19, 03:15 PM
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Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
No need for dish soap, bubble juice is the perfect tubeless tire mounting solution. Crazy cheap (99 a quart,) slippery when wet, but dries slightly tacky, with very low residue.
Bubble juice has glycerin in it, so although I am hesitant, I think I will also try it someday.


Originally Posted by DrIsotope View Post
Also, if the OP had indeed cut or damaged the kevlar bead, the tire would have mounted quite easily, and then immediately blown off the rim the instant he put air into it. The damage is cosmetic.
Agreed
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Old 11-19-19, 02:14 PM
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Originally Posted by Reynolds 531 View Post
Use Dawn dish soap instead of silicone grease, please.

Silicon NEVER dries out (ever paint a bike frame that had WD40 on it?) and will let the bead pop OFF just as easily as it popped ON, perhaps even at an inopportune time.

Dawn dries out, seals, helps clean excess sealant off the skinwalls, and costs $1.

For filling tubeless I use the old-fashioned Silca brass pump head, for straight shot of air.
Im now wondering if there will be any movement of the tire under acceleration or braking. One way to find out would be if, as you suggest above - the tire were to de-bead itself when pumped up to pressure. I cant imagine this is going to happen. If it did, that would be a wild occurrence!

Since the tire labeling is lined up with the valve, it seems possible that the tire could migrate along the bead under braking. This situation also seems unlikely but I plan to do a thorough road test on this lightweight tubeless clincher tire combination.
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