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Chains

Old 12-19-14, 01:26 AM
  #51  
Baby Puke
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Hmm. I don't know anyone else who's doing it old school like that, but to each his own. The screw-type master links seem to do ok for the pro keirin riders in Japan, and though I don't yet have any experience with the clip-type, I know that's what they use in BMX and the pros must put a lot of torque into them doing gate starts.
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Old 12-19-14, 01:26 AM
  #52  
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Always used the circlip style master link - KMC Master Link 410 - $9.99

Has never failed on me, easy enough to remove, and they still use the design on motorcycles. Just make sure that the closed end is leading the open end in the direction of travel.
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Old 12-19-14, 05:51 AM
  #53  
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pin and cotter

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Old 12-19-14, 06:52 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by taras0000 View Post
Always used the circlip style master link - KMC Master Link 410 - $9.99

Has never failed on me, easy enough to remove, and they still use the design on motorcycles. Just make sure that the closed end is leading the open end in the direction of travel.
I've had that style of link fail me on a road chain, but on a track chain I would think that a potential failure would be significantly less likely.

Last edited by dunderhi; 12-19-14 at 06:53 AM. Reason: Typo
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Old 12-19-14, 06:55 AM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by Soil_Sampler View Post
I've never had one of those fail on my tractor.
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Old 12-19-14, 07:03 AM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
I also would be concerned about the braking force (not breaking force) working against some tension-based Master Links. Although the bolt-style Master Link design of the Izumi V Supertoughness, can't fail in a negative tension situation, I can't imagine myself trusting that little nut holding tight while I'm sprinting on a track. As a result, my Izumi V is hard pinned.
I'm not quite sure i'm following you here, and wonder if you can explain what you mean about the braking force working against tension-based master links? a braking force (i.e back-pedaling/ resisting the forward pedal momentum), still keeps the chain under tension, but transfers the max tension from the top of the chain to the bottom?

In my experience though, pushing pins in and out tends to have more of an impact on the strength of the chain than a master link, but the experience of others might differ
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Old 12-19-14, 09:50 AM
  #57  
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I bet it's far more likely to have a chain break at a point where a pin was re-inserted than it is at a master link.
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Old 12-19-14, 12:45 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
I'm not quite sure i'm following you here, and wonder if you can explain what you mean about the braking force working against tension-based master links? a braking force (i.e back-pedaling/ resisting the forward pedal momentum), still keeps the chain under tension, but transfers the max tension from the top of the chain to the bottom?

In my experience though, pushing pins in and out tends to have more of an impact on the strength of the chain than a master link, but the experience of others might differ
I think the deal is when you put back pressure, the change in tension can be dramatic and very snappy because it is driven by momentum. Like hitting the brakes hard on a car and everything flies forward. The inverse, accelerating so hard the chain "bounces" on the non-tension side, is more rare simply because we would have to produce that acceleration with our puny leg muscles.

FWIW, as long as you check the connection every once in a while, the screw/locknut concept is excellent. If it binds, you can always back the screw out a quarter turn and use the lock nut to make sure it doesn't unscrew. I went so far as filing a little locknut wrench for this purpose. If the lock nut is tight, it shouldn't unscrew.
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Old 12-19-14, 01:11 PM
  #59  
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I assume that same snappy change in tension is what yields weirdly high power numbers in Standing Starts- especially done in small gears.. It's like a hammer blow
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Old 12-19-14, 03:49 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Brian Ratliff View Post
Originally Posted by Velocirapture View Post
I'm not quite sure i'm following you here, and wonder if you can explain what you mean about the braking force working against tension-based master links? a braking force (i.e back-pedaling/ resisting the forward pedal momentum), still keeps the chain under tension, but transfers the max tension from the top of the chain to the bottom?

In my experience though, pushing pins in and out tends to have more of an impact on the strength of the chain than a master link, but the experience of others might differ
I think the deal is when you put back pressure, the change in tension can be dramatic and very snappy because it is driven by momentum. Like hitting the brakes hard on a car and everything flies forward. The inverse, accelerating so hard the chain "bounces" on the non-tension side, is more rare simply because we would have to produce that acceleration with our puny leg muscles.

FWIW, as long as you check the connection every once in a while, the screw/locknut concept is excellent. If it binds, you can always back the screw out a quarter turn and use the lock nut to make sure it doesn't unscrew. I went so far as filing a little locknut wrench for this purpose. If the lock nut is tight, it shouldn't unscrew.
Thanks for the explanation. This pretty much was my train of thought. My thinking also depends on the type of master link. I think a Wipperman or SRAM master link style could be vulnerable backing out in a track setup, but the KMC master link linked above wouldn't. I also don't think track chains have changed over the years, their pins should be sufficiently long to allow for reinsertion. With road chains it is a different story, since the 8 => 9 => 10 => 11 speed chains have grew narrower and narrower. Likewise the length that the pin extends beyond the plate has also shrunk. Measuring my current KMC road chain, I get a pin length of 5.9mm and the pin extends only 0.1mm beyond the plate. That's not much margin for error when pinning the chain. The same measurements for my Izumi V are 9.5mm and 0.7 mm. I might be a bit more cautious when it comes to chains, since as a big guy, I've broken at least of dozen of them. Two of these breaks were this year alone. One had a master link and the other was pinned. As I said before, with road chains, I use a Master link if the chains come with one, but for the track, I'm just not comfortable with master links at this point in time. That said, as a participant on this public forum, I'm open to other's views and who knows, I may be swayed and trust my well-being to that little lock-nut. I guess I would need to balance it against the vulernability of a couple of layers of paper thin cotton casing at 175psi.
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Old 12-19-14, 06:22 PM
  #61  
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pin and cotter

Originally Posted by dunderhi View Post
I've never had one of those fail on my tractor.
bullet proof on my KMC HL710SL!
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Old 12-19-14, 06:38 PM
  #62  
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Pushing pins out and reinserting them flares out the hole the pin is reinserted into - it's something I would never do to a track chain. The master links are more than big and scary enough to handle the stress, and reinserting pins would, to my mind, introduce a weak point to the chain.
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Old 12-19-14, 07:28 PM
  #63  
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I would go as far as to say it is damn near impossible for a track chain to fail if it is cut and assembled with a proper master link and properly maintained and retired at the appropriate time..

I would assume all failures were operator error associated with reinserting pins or incorrect use of master links (less likely)
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Old 12-19-14, 08:12 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by Quinn8it View Post
I would go as far as to say it is damn near impossible for a track chain to fail if it is cut and assembled with a proper master link and properly maintained and retired at the appropriate time..

I would assume all failures were operator error associated with reinserting pins or incorrect use of master links (less likely)
Let me clarify a bit, I've never had a track chain failure, but I've also never used a master link on a track chain either. My history of chains that have failed were all road chains, which include Simano Dura Ace with their breakaway assembly pin, KMC chains that weren't supplied with master pins, and Wipperman & SRAM chain with their master pins. I never need to resize a chain, since I make sure I get the length right the first time (I've been building all of my own bikes for the past 35 years). Anyway, I don't think most people understand the forces a heavy rider can put on equipment. For example, I had an SRAM master link plate shear from the pin hole outward without any observable twisting. The plate was just hanging there with a quarter of the plate around the hole just gone. Another master link failed by a plate snapping between the pins, while others have failed by the pin shearing through the plate hole. Chains without master links usually failed at a pin connection, but they also lack the weakest(master) link. I understand that these types of failures may sound unbelievable to some, I've also snapped a crank arm, broke two bottom bracket spindles, several pedal bodies, and a couple pedal spindles. I'm also murder on carbon frames, wheels, and all bearings.
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Old 12-19-14, 10:35 PM
  #65  
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Problem with inserting pins into many modern chains is less length and more hollow pins that are peened at factory assembly. How long ago did you break a kmc road chain? They've had master links for at least five years.
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Old 12-19-14, 11:51 PM
  #66  
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Originally Posted by wens View Post
Problem with inserting pins into many modern chains is less length and more hollow pins that are peened at factory assembly. How long ago did you break a kmc road chain? They've had master links for at least five years.
I agree the narrowing of the road chains and the relative shortening of the pins is causing more problems.

I bought two KMC chains last Winter (along with a couple of Shimano chains). One KMC was a 10EL which did not come with a master link, but the other is a X10SL that I stil have in new in the box and after checking it, I see that this one has a master link. With my history, I like to stay stocked up with spare chains and pedals. I put the 10EL on my bike last week, so I'll see how long is lasts. Hopefully it will get me to the Spring. I believe the two chains I broke this year were both Shimano Dura Ace which I assembled using the supplied Shimano breakaway pin. The Shimano chain was designed for this breakaway pin, so I can't imagine that using their supplied pin and following their instructions is the wrong way to assemble the chain. Anyway, I am at a loss as a far road chains, but I'm pretty confident with my track chain choice. Does anyone know of an equivalent (at least in reputation) to the Izumi V for the road?
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Old 12-21-14, 09:19 PM
  #67  
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JFWIW, I have lots of experience with 1/8" and 3/32" on the track, both masterlinked and riveted. I've even ridden kilo (not superfast, but 1:08/1:09 territory, back before disks and aerobars) with the cheapest 3/32" chain available at the time. I've never had the slightest hint of chain trouble on the track, so I guess the argument about masterlink vs. rivet vs. whatever is academic.

Having said that, I managed the old Olympic track at Dominguez Hills, long ago, and noted that the extremely flexible KHS rental bikes threw chains on a regulars basis. I replace all the 3/32" chains with 1/8" chains figuring that would solve the problem, and it had no effect at all. My theory, at this point, is that if you have a bike with chain problems, it's probably the bike and not the chain. And if you have a bike without chain problems, you can probably do whatever you want re. chains and continue to not have chain problems.

My other theory is that most of my theories are stupid, though, so...

<edit> I'm so old at this point that you have to understand I'm talking about 3/32" chains for six and seven speed freewheels. I have no idea whether today's chains for eleventyseven speed cassettes would even fit on a 3/32" track cog, let alone whether they would hold up. I hear you have to take out a bank loan to buy one anyway, so don't know why a trackie would bother.
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Old 12-22-14, 01:48 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by Six jours View Post
JFWIW, I have lots of experience with 1/8" and 3/32" on the track, both masterlinked and riveted. I've even ridden kilo (not superfast, but 1:08/1:09 territory, back before disks and aerobars) with the cheapest 3/32" chain available at the time. I've never had the slightest hint of chain trouble on the track, so I guess the argument about masterlink vs. rivet vs. whatever is academic.

Having said that, I managed the old Olympic track at Dominguez Hills, long ago, and noted that the extremely flexible KHS rental bikes threw chains on a regulars basis. I replace all the 3/32" chains with 1/8" chains figuring that would solve the problem, and it had no effect at all. My theory, at this point, is that if you have a bike with chain problems, it's probably the bike and not the chain. And if you have a bike without chain problems, you can probably do whatever you want re. chains and continue to not have chain problems.

My other theory is that most of my theories are stupid, though, so...

<edit> I'm so old at this point that you have to understand I'm talking about 3/32" chains for six and seven speed freewheels. I have no idea whether today's chains for eleventyseven speed cassettes would even fit on a 3/32" track cog, let alone whether they would hold up. I hear you have to take out a bank loan to buy one anyway, so don't know why a trackie would bother.
I had one of those KHS bikes, and 6jours is right, it was the bike. I was only 5'5" and weighed 150; I can't imagine what normal sized person would have experienced. It did clear people off my wheel coming out of turn 4 though, as the frame flex would move the bike substantially side to side in the final sprint. I replace the 3/32 with 1/8 chain, and it still popped off.
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Old 12-22-14, 05:22 PM
  #69  
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So my kmc chains came today, and unfortunately they came with these type master links, which is why I avoided the Wippermann chains. Do you guys trust these master links? And are they reusable? It's unclear from the instructions. Thanks.
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Old 12-22-14, 06:52 PM
  #70  
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It has worked fine for me for a couple of years now, but I am not putting out 2500 watts on starts. Easy to remove to swap chains. Since it is short if not fastened a quick spin after mounting will either have it seated or a side plate off if you messed up the install so it is a simple sanity check.
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Old 12-22-14, 08:26 PM
  #71  
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So it is reusable?
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Old 12-22-14, 08:34 PM
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke View Post
So it is reusable?
I assume it's the same as the road ones. Can be installed and removed more than once. Supposed to chuck it when you replace the chain.
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Old 12-22-14, 09:56 PM
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Totally re-usable and actually faster to remove than the standard clip type assuming you have the tool.

still- I would buy a few of the KMC standard track masters and use those, since all you need is a flat head screw driver to change them, and it's clear that they are installed correctly.

ive got those masters on my road bikes (a 3/32 and a 10speed chain) and they work great.. But not my first choice for track
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Old 12-23-14, 01:28 AM
  #74  
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Agree, thanks Quinn.

Looks like a good chain otherwise.
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Old 12-23-14, 06:18 AM
  #75  
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Is there any meaningful difference between these: 1/8" Masterlink Archives » KMC Chain

Or is it just varying amounts of heavy duty and color?
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