spectastic

I realize this is probably a question suitable for a coach, but i don't have one of those..

i didn't plan my offseason very well, and have been spending the last month or so trying to get my fitness up with intervals. however, this month consists of 4 weeks in a row of road races that are important. they're mostly cat 2 only races, which means greater potential for upgrade points, podiums, money.

now i'm trying to figure out which routine would be good to adopt such that I can be well rested for those races, and still get some harder vo2 workouts in there. I want to peak around mid/late april - early may for the state crit, and possibly college nats, and then again in late august - early september for some more important road races. I've got about 6 weeks to get to my first target.

I was thinking saturday/sunday race, monday tempo/recovery, tuesday vo2/anaerobic intervals, wednesday, rest, thursday group ride (lots of climbing, so kind of intervals), friday rest, saturday/sunday race. My idea is to get a couple of interval workouts each week, mix in some tempo work, and a race on the weekend. if I race twice on the weekend, then the race would replace one of the interval workouts, or at least make me go easier on the group ride. I guess I should start tracking my TSS too.. But judging from the information I've provided, is this a good strategy? should I instead block the intervals next to each other, and allow for 2 consecutive days of recovery before the race? what should I do**********?? (besides getting a coach)

rubiksoval

I'd actually probably do the opposite. If the races are important, I'd make sure to come into those relatively fresh. It's easy to jump in early season with a lot of motivation and then be crushed by May. Races are workouts, and often times harder than workouts, so you've got to treat them with a bit of respect in that regard.

Your schedule would be impossible for me, so I'd probably do a Mon recovery ride, Tues/Thurs 2-3 hour endurance (whatever you're used to and still allows for decent recovery) and then a workout on Wednesday, probably a mini-kitchen sink style where you start out with 15-20 mins of sweetspot, do 10-15 mins of vo2 (actual 100% vo2 power type stuff), then maybe another 10-20 mins of tempo with a few sprints.

That allows for 3 hard days, which is probably the most you can actually do for weeks in a row and still come out swinging (though everyone differs a bit on this). I definitely wouldn't do a hard group ride on Thursday every week. Maybe once at the beginning and end if you're really looking to make some hard weeks.

But 4 weeks in a row is going to be pretty tough already if you're not already very fit.

furiousferret

I was going to post the same thing.

After 6 weeks with the Flu > Crash > Death in Family I'm down to 50 CTL and we're in the meat of our season. I think we have a race every weekend for the next 10 weeks. I'm competitive at 80+ CTL, but if I race on weekends its going to be hard to hit that number.

Granted, I don't feel like I'm in 50 CTL shape, I had a good off season and still feel fairly strong so maybe I'm just panicking.

spectastic

But Wednesday night is salsa night 🤔.

tetonrider

is money really a motivator for you racing as an amateur? (genuine curiosity here)

re: the cat 2 only thing -- i find the opposite. seems like every cat 2 thinks this is a gravy train of points and therefore they hit it with motivation.

one could argue that results other than a podium do not matter for, say, cat 1 racers as they race for the win and not for points; therefore, collecting points from minor placings may be easier in a p12 field than a straight up cat 2.

good cat 2 riders -- the ones competing for points -- are very good.

rubiksoval

Why wouldn't money be a motivator? That's why they offer it!

I do a half dozen $3-5K crits a year, driving upwards of 8 hours to do so. They also tend to pull in the biggest, deepest fields, so always quality racing.

Managed to get almost 2 grand in prize money last year, which basically covered all of my race fees. That's a huge help.

spectastic

as a cat 3, I was able to pretty much break even, maybe a little more, because there was this one $500 payout for first place. Those race fees add up. So yea, I'm going to look at the payout every time. But if it's a situation where I'm on a team with money, and my race fees are paid for, then I probably wouldn't care about the payout nearly as much. In those cases, I'm happy to sacrifice myself in a role that doesn't involve winning.

also, after the race this weekend, I'd consider myself to be one of the stronger cat 2's right now.

tetonrider

i appreciate your opinion.

most of those were P1 stuff, right? like NRC?

i feel like when money gets added to the mix, you've got some people who take things too seriously. road -- compared to plenty of sports -- already has a problem with this. people forget it is an amateur sport, a hobby. money muddies that water. most other amateur sports aren't paying winners.

*most* cat 1s are still hobbyists.

i've been the benficiary of prize money. i've given some back and regret the purses i did not return. i feel like promoters should make more money, or everyone should pay $5 less -- or junior fields should be free. i'm a master-blaster, and *in my opinion* i feel like masters payouts are a problem.

i know not everyone feels this way.

also, i find (at least in a given region) that the people who win the local/regional races are the same set of people, week after week. it winds up being a bunch of people subsidizing those winnings.

again, my opinion. i know it motivates *some* people.

i also appreciate your opinion.

personally, i've never chosen to do or not do an event because of the payout. i can see how -- all else equal -- it could be a reason to choose one event over another if there were 2 on a given day.

i appreciate that "race fees add up"; i still think race *entry fees* for cycling are lower than many other sports, and only a handful of promoters are making money. that's not sustainable--relying upon love of the sport to put on races is precarious.

i accept that i could be in the minority with my thoughts outlined above.

spectastic

i have no idea how setting up a bike race actually works. my very basic understanding is that it takes a lot of work, and the money is a challenge for the promoters. sometimes, they can even be in the hole. it makes me curious what it takes to setup a race, and what motivates the promoters to do it.

rubiksoval

No, most are p/1/2. PRT races sometimes have bigger money (12,500 for Sunny King), but sometimes not (3500 for Gateway Cup).

Those races usually draw in more of the pro teams, but not always.

Whether or not I travel to a race depends almost entirely on payout. I won't drive 2 hours for a race paying out $200 bucks 5 deep, for example. Just not worth the cost in money or time or effort.

Without prize money I would likely not race much out of a 1 or 2 hour radius, or I'd do a lot less events. I've had to pay for almost everything the last couple of years; from equipment to race fees to helmets to nutrition and everything else. Yes, it is a hobby, but currently one I can only continue to pursue at higher levels because of prize money. One $200 prime can almost cover a weekend!

But yeah, if there were cheaper entry fees, that'd probably be more doable. I'm paying 50-60 dollars PER crit to do the bigger races. But like I said before, those races also have the best fields, so even if their prize money was halved, if the field still came, I feel like I'd figure out a way to do them, maybe by simply cutting out local races or something. I don't know.

I don't necessarily disagree with getting rid of prize money altogether. There was a good thread with some good insight on that a while ago. And if I had all of my racing covered, I really wouldn't be bothered with it, either. Just kind of the way it is at the moment.

furiousferret

Personally, I'd like to see all the prize money just go to the p/1/2 races. It would make being a pro more sustainable and maybe more enticing to grow the sport.

Entry fees are a huge issue. Local Governments design the permits with running races in mind and see it as a money pit. Mud runs and 5k's can pull in 100k in a single event and that's used that as a base. In one town each event has to have at least a police sergeant, 2 officers, and an ambulance on site.

spectastic

it would make becoming a pro less enticing. I mean the lower categories are already pretty much subsidizing the p/1/2 payout as it is.

tetonrider

the idea that people in any material number are going to enter the sport as a cat 5 (esp if they are over 21) and turn pro is a pretty major long-shot.

even most of the 'pro' riders are scraping by, sleeping on couches, and have a separate job. to me, that's not really being a pro. "i'm a professional engineer, but i have a job at a bike shop to pay my bills."


now, we could say there are lots of things wrong with how the sport is set up or the way it works in the US (riders are underpaid relative to their level of risk, but the fans aren't there to support paying more), but cat 5->pro is a *very* inefficient process at best.

*club* payouts seems more meaningful. they can offer mentorship and also help young racers when they don't win. i'm more a fan of free race entries for juniors and/or deals on equipment. seems like cat 3 riders and masters are often super eager to get in on the payouts. i'm not convinced that does much to grow the sport -- i think that in general it *takes away* from it.

for the most part, amateur bike racing is not a path to the pro ranks, and pretending otherwise i believe does that amateur sport a disservice in the long-term and in the aggregate. sure, there are cases of individuals it helped (as said above, i've been the beneficiary of non-trivial payouts); that doesn't make it right.

just my opinion, of course.

Radish_legs

you guys don't share your cash payouts with your teammates? How does that typically work?

tetonrider

all mine came racing solo, so i wouldn't know. i've heard of various arrangments, though -- from no share to equal share for all teammates, even when a person did nothing. (in that case it seems like it would be polite to decline.)

Radish_legs

I've heard complaints where so-and-so "didn't share any of his winnings with his teammates" (this was about a guy who was later busted for doping). So I guess on that team it was typical to share. But I wonder if its the default arrangement.

I have no idea what the arrangement is on my team. I get the feeling that it is not expected. I doubt the Cat 4 who won a couple weeks ago shared with the other 4 guys or so with him.

caloso

Last time I won any money, I spent my meager payout on cold beverages for my teammates. I kept the protein powder prime though.

Radish_legs

The races I do are all gift certificates to bike shops. Haven't split a gift certificate yet. Of course, I mostly didn't ride with teammates either (main reason I switched teams).

Ygduf

I get extra large t-shirts and offer to let teammates stand inside them with me

topflightpro

My team used to have a policy that all race winnings were to be split among everyone who lined up for that event. This was to assure we were working toward one goal, and there could be no arguments that X rider didn't finish the race or Y rider didn't work hard enough. We also made it clear that anyone who didn't feel like they contributed could decline to take their share, leaving it to the winner.

But we haven't really had much of a race team in several years, so it hasn't really come up in awhile.

rubiksoval

Depends on the team.

I've done equal splits as long as you contributed and finished.

I've also done 50% to the winner and 50% in a pot (works well when you have multiple people in the money).

My biggest race winnings were from times I was solo, though.

Definitely important to discuss, especially if someone is laying it on the line for someone else. And especially if it's more than a meal or beer or something. Also important to figure out what "helping" actually is. Attacking with 2 laps to go to "give your guy an easy ride" and giving yourself an excuse for finishing 47th is not actually helping anything. Seen that happen a few times to various teams in various categories.

aaronmcd

I've shared in winnings when I helped, and I've declined the split when it was my second race, I was gassed, and I didn't even last. I feel if I've done what I can and at least something to help, ill take a split if offered. I don't care though. Its not much money.

aaronmcd

Attacking with a few to go may be the last option. Its often mine. I figure, as you say, either I stay away and win or I put in all I've got and make the other chase a bit. I've never had teammates look down on this. The cool thing is that it really works... The others who feel they have a shot are forced to spend energy a lap or 2 early.

rubiksoval

Maybe it works for you and you're strong enough to actually stick it in the right circumstance, but I haven't seen it work for the people I've seen do it (not necessarily my teammates). All it does is provide an excuse for their frequent poor finishes.

But even if you're strong enough to stick it but still never do, at the end of the day, I'd start asking why you continually do it. Personally, I would get pretty annoyed if my teammate constantly attacked with 2-3 laps to go and never did anything with it. At some point you've got to start working on something different. Otherwise how are you going to improve as a racer? If you always go for a late attack, how are you ever going to improve on a sprint, or improve on a leadout? And that works in reverse, too, of course. But doing the same thing all the time and never having anything to show for it doesn't make much sense.

Ygduf

couple things - if you're a poor sprinter and it's coming to a field sprint, you no longer need excuses for poor finishes. If you look around you in any race of 50 guys, you'll notice that 49 of them are doing things that don't work that day.