What, if anything, can be learnt about this spoke breakage?
#26
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Side note, having nothing to do with the issue.
I note that the wheel isn't mirrored (all trailing spokes either elbow in or out). Most hand builders mirror for a number of reasons. Machine built wheels are often built unmirrored because it's faster for a production worker. So, while this wouldn't cause failure at nipples, it argues against the wheel being hand built by a skilled builder.
I note that the wheel isn't mirrored (all trailing spokes either elbow in or out). Most hand builders mirror for a number of reasons. Machine built wheels are often built unmirrored because it's faster for a production worker. So, while this wouldn't cause failure at nipples, it argues against the wheel being hand built by a skilled builder.
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Experienced builders usually have opinion about pulling spokes being elbow out or on. Whatever they believe, it applies to both flanges, so they mirror accordingly.
Production builders using lacing machines are more focused on speed, wanting to lace 30+ wheels per hour. Not mirroring makes the handwork the same on both flanges, allowing them to lace on autopilot, bottom flange first, then top.
So, free of judgement, mirrored vs. non-mirrored can distinguish hand vs. machine built wheels.
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I do that while I'm truing, but I also put the wheel on a carpeted floor and press hard with hands on opposite sides, turn maybe 45 degrees and repeat until I've gone around a couple of times, then flip it over and do the other side - repeat until there are no pings or creaks. I'm quite heavy, I can see that standing on it might work better for a lighter person.
#29
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I do that while I'm truing, but I also put the wheel on a carpeted floor and press hard with hands on opposite sides, turn maybe 45 degrees and repeat until I've gone around a couple of times, then flip it over and do the other side - repeat until there are no pings or creaks. I'm quite heavy, I can see that standing on it might work better for a lighter person.
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Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar.
2 spokes breaking over a year apart is not enough to make any inferences.
2 spokes breaking over a year apart is not enough to make any inferences.
Last edited by FBinNY; 03-01-24 at 01:45 PM.
#33
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#34
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Interesting. I had not noticed before, the hub drive-side flange is larger diameter than the non-drive-side. If anything, I would have thought the other way around, to make spokes on both sides more even in length. But maybe yours has to do with the dish and lateral pull angle of spokes on each side. I'll have to think about that.
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Interesting. I had not noticed before, the hub drive-side flange is larger diameter than the non-drive-side. If anything, I would have thought the other way around, to make spokes on both sides more even in length. But maybe yours has to do with the dish and lateral pull angle of spokes on each side. I'll have to think about that.
Last edited by Ron Damon; 03-02-24 at 04:07 AM.
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While a larger flange combined with reduced crosses increases the bracing angle, the reality is that the reduced crosses matter more.
With more crosses, as your's seems to have, spokes end close to the axis regardless of flange size. Combined with the very slight difference in diameter, the net effect will be near zero.
By example, on a 3x28h build flange size makes no difference at all vis a vis spoke length or bracing angle.
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No knees involved, except for kneeling on the floor - the rim touches the floor at 12 o'clock, the hub holds the rim up at an angle, and you press down at 10 and 2 o'clock (or WNW and ENE if you prefer).
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take a pair of pliers and bend the spokes at about 1" up from the nipple to normalize the angle at which the spoke enters the nipple.
so it goes "straight in" won't hurt a thing.
the other thing you can do is re-lace that wheel with 2 cross to give a reduced that angle of departure.
/markp
so it goes "straight in" won't hurt a thing.
the other thing you can do is re-lace that wheel with 2 cross to give a reduced that angle of departure.
/markp
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The press down method on the sides of the rim is NOT stress relieving...
...and one of the worst things you can do to a wheel. A wheel's strength is linear - not lateral.
You are literally threatening to taco the wheel if you do that.
Shocked how we still have people who do this despite decades of warnings NOT to do this.
=8-(
...and one of the worst things you can do to a wheel. A wheel's strength is linear - not lateral.
You are literally threatening to taco the wheel if you do that.
Shocked how we still have people who do this despite decades of warnings NOT to do this.
=8-(
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Disclaimer:
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5000+ wheels built since 1984...
Disclaimer:
1. I do not claim to be an expert in bicycle mechanics despite my experience.
2. I like anyone will comment in other areas.
3. I do not own the preexisting concepts of DISH and ERD.
4. I will provide information as I always have to others that I believe will help them protect themselves from unscrupulous mechanics.
5. My all time favorite book is:
Kahane, Howard. Logic and Contemporary Rhetoric: The Use of Reason in Everyday Life
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The press down method on the sides of the rim is NOT stress relieving...
...and one of the worst things you can do to a wheel. A wheel's strength is linear - not lateral.
You are literally threatening to taco the wheel if you do that.
Shocked how we still have people who do this despite decades of warnings NOT to do this.
=8-(
...and one of the worst things you can do to a wheel. A wheel's strength is linear - not lateral.
You are literally threatening to taco the wheel if you do that.
Shocked how we still have people who do this despite decades of warnings NOT to do this.
=8-(
#41
Senior Member
I... don't think that puts much strain on the spokes at all (and you do need strain for stress relieving). It may try to stretch the spokes at 10 and 2 a bit with respect to the spokes at 12, but it's fighting the local lateral stiffness of the rim, and perhaps may cause yielding on the rim before the spokes, something you don't want. As always, "I could be wrong".
#42
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I had to think about that... yes, same lateral distance with shorter spokes increases the bracing angle. That may explain a wheel shown on another thread with radial spoking on the drive side, and crossed spoking opposite; I know modern hubs with large cylindrical midsection makes this possible, but didn't see the logic of doing it that way. Your explanation may be the key.
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I... don't think that puts much strain on the spokes at all (and you do need strain for stress relieving). It may try to stretch the spokes at 10 and 2 a bit with respect to the spokes at 12, but it's fighting the local lateral stiffness of the rim, and perhaps may cause yielding on the rim before the spokes, something you don't want. As always, "I could be wrong".
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There are countless variations on how to stress relieve/settle/unwind a nearly finished wheel.
They all share a common process, namely overload some spokes, while relaxing others. Whatever gets the job done is fine
FWIW I prefer to sit, brace the wheel against one knee an pull at 3 and 9, working my around the wheel. I gauge how hard to pull by watching and listening. I don't claim this is any better, except that it doesn't call for getting up.
They all share a common process, namely overload some spokes, while relaxing others. Whatever gets the job done is fine
FWIW I prefer to sit, brace the wheel against one knee an pull at 3 and 9, working my around the wheel. I gauge how hard to pull by watching and listening. I don't claim this is any better, except that it doesn't call for getting up.
#46
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Ah OK. Long ago I recall that on newly trued wheels, but less as I became aware of spoke windup and would reverse the nipples near the end to unwind. In recent years, I don't recall much of either, and thinking now, that is probably due to my riding exclusively 20" wheels with constant gauge short spokes, which are more torsionally stiff than on my previous 700c bikes.