Steel plate need to be Blanchard ground?
01-27-20, 12:42 PM
#26
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My thoughts on alignment tables. Granite tables are very flat and comparatively inexpensive. Many of my students don’t choose this option because they are very heavy in the size they want and difficult to move. They may not yet have a permanent shop space or it is someplace fork lift inaccessible. Cast iron tables are awesome but have the same weight problem. They have the advantage over granite in that they don’t chip and magnetic hold downs can be used in a variety of ways on them. Steel slabs an inch thick or less can be ground to decent tolerances and work well. The one we have in Ukraine was poorly ground but has been stable for years. My associate Herbie made his table out of hot rolled flat stock too. He got it cut to exactly the dimensions he needed to fit precisely in his cramped space. He had it Blanchard ground 3 times. The top was ground and then the bottom and then the top again for maximum flatness. He was able to cut and weld the legs and support out of square stock. The whole process cost him less than $1000. This whole process is too much for some beginners to get done themselves.
My Blanchard ground cast aluminum table (with ribs) has worked great. I can flip a frame back and forth between my cast iron table and get the same reading. Its advantage is that they can be ordered in almost any size and is light enough for 2 guys to easily move it around. My top weighs around 170 pounds and the legs are removable. The surface can be scratched if one isn’t careful. However, in years of hard student use that hasn’t been a problem yet. They don’t require luck in finding one, you just have to have $1500/$2000 to buy one. This convenience is an important for some starting out. The Wolverine Bronze Company where I bought mine drilled my post hole for me.
I use my alignment tables as tools and not as some tenderly cared for inspection only table. I do so many tasks on them I can’t imagine not having a full sized one. In my system this is my foundation piece of equipment in my shop. It is far more important to me than my expensive fixtures and give me more accurate results. Of course if I had to I could use a straight edge with an adjustable pointer but I wouldn’t want to. Beams and milling table tops are fine too. A 2’X 3’ is better yet. But I don’t want to be limited. I can ride a century with DT friction shifters. I don’t prefer doing that either.
My Blanchard ground cast aluminum table (with ribs) has worked great. I can flip a frame back and forth between my cast iron table and get the same reading. Its advantage is that they can be ordered in almost any size and is light enough for 2 guys to easily move it around. My top weighs around 170 pounds and the legs are removable. The surface can be scratched if one isn’t careful. However, in years of hard student use that hasn’t been a problem yet. They don’t require luck in finding one, you just have to have $1500/$2000 to buy one. This convenience is an important for some starting out. The Wolverine Bronze Company where I bought mine drilled my post hole for me.
I use my alignment tables as tools and not as some tenderly cared for inspection only table. I do so many tasks on them I can’t imagine not having a full sized one. In my system this is my foundation piece of equipment in my shop. It is far more important to me than my expensive fixtures and give me more accurate results. Of course if I had to I could use a straight edge with an adjustable pointer but I wouldn’t want to. Beams and milling table tops are fine too. A 2’X 3’ is better yet. But I don’t want to be limited. I can ride a century with DT friction shifters. I don’t prefer doing that either.
Thank you Doug. I have looked at the table from Wolverine and think it would be great. Shipping of course almost makes it cost prohibitive. Same goes for the Bringhelli table, which is why I thought of going with steel plate. Good to hear that Herbie made his plate work and it's continuing to work well for him. I think I might be on the right track then.
Do you happen to know how thick of the plate he started with prior to the blanchard grinding process started?
01-28-20, 11:40 AM
#27
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One of my students used a plate of mic 6 aluminum. As I understand it this kind of aluminum is more stable than others because it is cast and is often used as the base plate for fixtures. He made his 30" X 48". He went to great lengths to get it flat although he said it comes pretty flat to start with. He worked at a place that had a big router that they used to face an entire side. In addition to lots of C channel support, he also had screw jacks underneath to tune the plate flatter. He had thick MDF board between the supports and the aluminum .
My concern for building an alignment table is that for many, too much fabrication really means they don't have the resources or skills to make one for themselves so they can't get started making frames. That is why a cast aluminum table from Wolverine Bronze is a good option for some (if they have the money). I've said this before but just in case it has been forgotten, it is possible to use a woodworking table saw top as an alignment surface. This year 2 of my frame building class students had access to a table saw and used that as a reference to build their next frame after class.
01-28-20, 01:18 PM
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My understanding is that mic 6 is blanchard ground. It sure looks like it anyway. They also stress relieve it, I have a piece showing up today so I can mount an encoder to my lathe on something flat
01-28-20, 01:58 PM
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My concern for building an alignment table is that for many, too much fabrication really means they don't have the resources or skills to make one for themselves so they can't get started making frames. That is why a cast aluminum table from Wolverine Bronze is a good option for some (if they have the money). I've said this before but just in case it has been forgotten, it is possible to use a woodworking table saw top as an alignment surface. This year 2 of my frame building class students had access to a table saw and used that as a reference to build their next frame after class.
01-28-20, 02:50 PM
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01-28-20, 07:20 PM
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Various posters have reported on using various surfaces for a plate. Counter tops, grave stones, milling machine tables, table saws, glass plates and my favorite and a really cool idea: poured epoxy. Andy
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01-28-20, 08:46 PM
#32
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Wolverine Bronze company reported to me that their business of making aluminum cast bases has greatly declined because of the increase in use of poured epoxy. My impression for the reason more beginning frame builders haven't used an epoxy poured alignment table is because no one that has done this has reported about it on a frame building forum.
01-28-20, 10:45 PM
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It was a post/thread in this or another builders forum quite a few years ago that clued me in to epoxy surfaces. Seems that some the high end race prep shops are using them for their frame alignment too. Andy
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01-29-20, 06:16 AM
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I have used a cnc machine made with it. The reference surfaces are laid into it, analogous to Doug's idea of embedding the post
01-29-20, 09:03 AM
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Since we're talking about such things, I did some looking and found a 16x35" milling table can get for around $200. The same place has a 3x4' granite table for $500, but that's too much of a financial and logistical project to take on right now. Question I have is, is a 16x35" table worth having to start off with, and If I eventually end up with a proper surface plate, would the milling machine table be a good base for a 8020 extrusion based building jig?
01-29-20, 09:20 AM
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Yes and yes. Although the jig use would end up weighing a lot. One feature in a jig that is real nice to have is the ability to tilt and rotate the jig during the tacking, a 200+ jig would be a bit awkward to pivot about with one hand while the other hold the flame. Andy
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01-29-20, 09:29 AM
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Servo motors an foot pedals I guess...
01-29-20, 09:58 AM
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I used a machine table as a jig a few years back. I had other parts though. Just tacking, the fact you can't move it is not that important. It wasn't big enough to check alignment, so I used my milling machine's table for that. I would estimate it's about 16x30-ish. Plenty big enough.
01-29-20, 10:02 AM
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Anyone know how long Bringheli's alignment C channel is?
01-29-20, 11:52 AM
#40
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Since we're talking about such things, I did some looking and found a 16x35" milling table can get for around $200. The same place has a 3x4' granite table for $500, but that's too much of a financial and logistical project to take on right now. Question I have is, is a 16x35" table worth having to start off with, and If I eventually end up with a proper surface plate, would the milling machine table be a good base for a 8020 extrusion based building jig?
I would not be interested in an 80/20 vertical fixture for many reasons but 1st among those is that 80/20 is not accurate nor cheap enough for me to want one. I'm not critical if it works for others. The popularity of vertical or through axle dropouts makes building an accurate rear triangle very challenging. In the classic era builders were able to use horizontal dropouts with screw adjusters to solve the wheel centering problem. My solution has been to start with a very flat surface and adjust my tube holders on the fixture laying on that flat surface so everything is in plane. Just for reference, i'm a spot only in the fixture and braze free guy.
If I was to start again on a very limited budget I would make a 30" X 48" table out of MDF and put a piece of sheet metal on top of it so hot dripping flux wouldn't bother it. I would support it underneath with something solid that could be moved a bit with screw jacks so it could be tuned even flatter using a precision straight edge. Or better yet just pour epoxy over the top and let gravity level it perfectly. Of course I haven't needed to try so my idea is just a theory.
01-29-20, 02:33 PM
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I get that "Jigging up", check alignment and cold setting are different operations.
So I'd like to confirm what I would be able to do off of a 16x35" mill table, and would it compliment a larger light weight flat surface that would not be used for cold setting?
So I'd like to confirm what I would be able to do off of a 16x35" mill table, and would it compliment a larger light weight flat surface that would not be used for cold setting?
01-29-20, 03:11 PM
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I think most frames are longer than that, head tube to dropout. You would not be able to check alignment for the whole frame at once. So it's like the Bringhelli c channel in that regard
01-29-20, 03:22 PM
#43
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For some reason I had forgotten about the epoxy route. That would be a great way to go. I could put the holes in where I want before the epoxy gets poured and I can make as big as I want. If they use them for race cars it's gotta be good for bike frames.
I wonder if it's strong enough to handle some minor cold setting?
Anyone know?
I wonder if it's strong enough to handle some minor cold setting?
Anyone know?
01-29-20, 03:50 PM
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I believe it's about 8 inches wide and 24 -28 inches long. I'm going off of memory but I don't think that's far off and it's certainly smaller than the 16x35 mentioned. the nice thing about the milling table is mounting a post will be a snap!
Separately, when the weather heats up a bit here in Seattle, I'm going to be pouring epoxy over the top of oak flooring I'm using on top of a roughly 30x40" work table. I will report back with update. It'll be a few months so don't hold your breath.
Separately, when the weather heats up a bit here in Seattle, I'm going to be pouring epoxy over the top of oak flooring I'm using on top of a roughly 30x40" work table. I will report back with update. It'll be a few months so don't hold your breath.
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01-29-20, 04:12 PM
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Well.... I don't want pretend to be an expert, but I did make a meager living doing things with wood and various adhesives, and I probably wouldn't take your money If you asked me to put epoxy over oak flooring to try and have a stable surface. Oak can be pretty stable if its been drying for a long time but its still going to move a lot compared to MDF. Any wood product is going to to need to be compleatly encapsulated to limit moisture flow, and particularly with something like a plank the back side will need to be fully covered with epoxy or the back will expand more than the front and each board will cup. Other concerns are that epoxy doesn't realy stick to Oak that well. White oak has a waxy substance in its "pores" and doesn't let the epoxy soak in. Red Oak will accept the epoxy better but is less stable and the acidic nature of the wood can cause some issues but thats probably not relevant here.
01-29-20, 04:23 PM
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If I was going to build a composite structure i would be tempted to start with a steel frame with a full epoxy coated MDF or HDF top. And then I would figure out how to float a piece of thick "Float" glass on top of a layer of epoxy. Getting it done with out trapping air bubbles would require some trickery. It would be flat and much more durable than an Epoxy surface. You wouldn't be able to lever on it though.
01-30-20, 01:02 AM
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Well.... I don't want pretend to be an expert, but I did make a meager living doing things with wood and various adhesives, and I probably wouldn't take your money If you asked me to put epoxy over oak flooring to try and have a stable surface. Oak can be pretty stable if its been drying for a long time but its still going to move a lot compared to MDF. Any wood product is going to to need to be compleatly encapsulated to limit moisture flow, and particularly with something like a plank the back side will need to be fully covered with epoxy or the back will expand more than the front and each board will cup. Other concerns are that epoxy doesn't realy stick to Oak that well. White oak has a waxy substance in its "pores" and doesn't let the epoxy soak in. Red Oak will accept the epoxy better but is less stable and the acidic nature of the wood can cause some issues but thats probably not relevant here.
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01-30-20, 08:47 AM
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I think the machine tables built with epoxy have some kind of filler. Doesn't seem to be metal filled, but that would work. Maybe they get granite dust?
I think I would remove the forms. My granite is mounted on some rubber sheet that is intended to conform a little. A rubber block wouldn't' work too well, because rubber is incompressible.
If Bringhelli made the c channel in his back yard shop, 30" is a pretty big machine. I have a monster bridgeport, and it only has 30" of travel. I wouldn't want to try to make a 30" long flat surface on it.
I think I would remove the forms. My granite is mounted on some rubber sheet that is intended to conform a little. A rubber block wouldn't' work too well, because rubber is incompressible.
If Bringhelli made the c channel in his back yard shop, 30" is a pretty big machine. I have a monster bridgeport, and it only has 30" of travel. I wouldn't want to try to make a 30" long flat surface on it.
01-30-20, 10:41 AM
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As far as a wood covered work table, if I was trying to do this I would glue all the boards together with wood glue. Id over hang the stainless table top a couple inches and screw angle iron to the under side of the oak plank. the angle iron should have 1/4 slots cut across the direction of the wood grain so that the top can move with out tearing the screws out. You could use epoxy as a seal coat over the wood top, bottom and edges, and then top coat with a floor grade polyurethane. Don't sand the oak with more than 100 grit sand paper and wipe the surfaces down with alcohol before epoxy coating. Then after the epoxy fully cures, the epoxied surface should be washed and scrubbed with soap and water and a scotch bright pad, because a lot of epoxy's will form a waxy amine blush on the surface as they cure. I would then glue the top to the stainless table with a window and door polyurethane caulking.
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01-31-20, 10:56 AM
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How would this be? I have a buddy that can build me a table for it. I'd have to figure out the best way for me to drill holes in it, like Duane did but not bad otherwise. Is 0.0004 good enough? I'd think it would be.
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