Are Drop bars just an illusion for most?
#476
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,007
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3340 Post(s)
Liked 3,438 Times
in
1,738 Posts
An alternate reality is one that advise cyclists not to brake on curves, thinking that is good advice.
Consider the the cyclist who finds debris around a blind turn. The right move is to apply the brakes, tighten the turn, and go around the debris. But no, she’s been told the myth that braking on a curve is a “bad idea” that “should be avoided,” because it is “suboptimal”. Crash!
Consider the the cyclist who finds debris around a blind turn. The right move is to apply the brakes, tighten the turn, and go around the debris. But no, she’s been told the myth that braking on a curve is a “bad idea” that “should be avoided,” because it is “suboptimal”. Crash!
#477
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Left Coast, Canada
Posts: 5,126
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2236 Post(s)
Liked 1,313 Times
in
706 Posts
An alternate reality is one that advise cyclists not to brake on curves, thinking that is good advice.
Consider the the cyclist who finds debris around a blind turn. The right move is to apply the brakes, tighten the turn, and go around the debris. But no, she’s been told the myth that braking on a curve is a “bad idea” that “should be avoided,” because it is “suboptimal”. Crash!
Consider the the cyclist who finds debris around a blind turn. The right move is to apply the brakes, tighten the turn, and go around the debris. But no, she’s been told the myth that braking on a curve is a “bad idea” that “should be avoided,” because it is “suboptimal”. Crash!
Why are they going too fast into a blind curve? Because you told them you could just brake through it. Hey, there's no downside to it in your words. What I said was brake before the curve so you aren't pushing the safety envelope and have wiggle room to adjust to stuff like debris.
Optimal is braking before the curve, sub optimal is braking in the curve. Doesn't mean don't do it - just there is a better alternative as an SOP.
I very intentionally used the descriptors optimal and sub optimal as they are more conducive to matters of degree and not black and white, right or wrong vocabulary. It is optimal to maintain a well functioning main chute when sky diving, sub optimal to rely on your reserve to bail you out. It doesn't mean you don't use the reserve if you need it. The terms denote where the emphasis should be laid. In this case, braking before the curve, not once in it. That's pretty common practice, not my "wild" theory.
I don't know who you think you're convincing when your own words are right there on the screen.
Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-19-19 at 07:43 PM.
#478
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,007
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3340 Post(s)
Liked 3,438 Times
in
1,738 Posts
For the vast majority of situations, there is no harm with braking in a turn. For many situations, refusing to brake in a turn is less safe—or downright dangerous.
#479
Non omnino gravis
Even though this thread is now mostly a jumble of theoretical page fluffing, I can't get it out of my head. The "trail braking a bicycle" notion is stuck with me. Because it's not really applicable to the average rider. I was paying attention to entry and exit speeds on my ride this morning, both on the flats and while descending. While coasting through any typical corner, regardless of initial velocity, I would lose about 1mph while on a descent, and ~2mph on flat ground; enter at 23mph, exit at 21 or 22, depending on the grade. The reason being, I never had to brake at all. I can corner while using only "my side" of a two-lane street up to around 32mph. No braking. Give me the whole street's width, and it would obviously be more.
I did brake inside a corner once this morning-- a right hander, entering ~25mph, I had hoped to cheat up a little of the middle lane for my exit, but a car was approaching to make a left turn, so I gave a little braking to stay tighter. Dropped to around 18mph. So while I can see where trail braking might be preferred or even necessary-- not for maximum speed, but to stay inside a corner-- I'm also thinking grades up past 7%, where I'm (personally) not all that concerned about carrying every little bit of speed through a corner, because at my age I will err to the side of safety. I can happily live with 2-3mph slower around the bends if it means I get to keep all of my skin.
So braking inside the corner under that umbrella, sure. As I said before, I think most of us do it unconsciously. But braking through any corner is still going to be slower than pushing the limits of grip while coasting.
I did brake inside a corner once this morning-- a right hander, entering ~25mph, I had hoped to cheat up a little of the middle lane for my exit, but a car was approaching to make a left turn, so I gave a little braking to stay tighter. Dropped to around 18mph. So while I can see where trail braking might be preferred or even necessary-- not for maximum speed, but to stay inside a corner-- I'm also thinking grades up past 7%, where I'm (personally) not all that concerned about carrying every little bit of speed through a corner, because at my age I will err to the side of safety. I can happily live with 2-3mph slower around the bends if it means I get to keep all of my skin.
So braking inside the corner under that umbrella, sure. As I said before, I think most of us do it unconsciously. But braking through any corner is still going to be slower than pushing the limits of grip while coasting.
#480
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Left Coast, Canada
Posts: 5,126
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2236 Post(s)
Liked 1,313 Times
in
706 Posts
For the vast majority of situations, there is no harm with braking from the hoods. See how that works.
The rest is just putting words where they don't exist.
Listen, when people stop using physics and start pulling out the big guns like "Optimal, shmoptimal. Just more fear mongering, using different words" I'm outta here.
Braking before the crash and all
Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-19-19 at 07:50 PM.
#481
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,007
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3340 Post(s)
Liked 3,438 Times
in
1,738 Posts
But riding in drops, like braking inside a turn, increase control and safety under certain conditions.
#482
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2015
Location: Left Coast, Canada
Posts: 5,126
Mentioned: 24 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2236 Post(s)
Liked 1,313 Times
in
706 Posts
Lot's of stuff applies "under certain conditions". Sitting on your top tube and resting your chest on the bars helps acceleration, sometimes.
Gotta go. Have a good night
#483
climber has-been
Join Date: Dec 2004
Location: Palo Alto, CA
Posts: 7,007
Bikes: Scott Addict R1, Felt Z1
Mentioned: 10 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3340 Post(s)
Liked 3,438 Times
in
1,738 Posts
In this video it is pretty easy to see the riders foot comes off the pedal. They appear to become preoccupied for a second and lose concentration to correct the trajectory path to complete the turn at that speed and veer wide to the point of neither being able to slow down or turn enough. Nothing about lost traction.
The sequence:
1. Fast approach to turn.
2. Hard braking.
3. Road irregularity causes rear wheel to skid.
4. Pro cyclist instinctively unclips left foot (because he has skills).
5. Bike tracks straight instead of turning, because rider can't start a turn when the rear wheel is skidding.
__________________
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse
Ride, Rest, Repeat. ROUVY: terrymorse
#484
Mad bike riding scientist
Join Date: Nov 2004
Location: Denver, CO
Posts: 27,274
Bikes: Some silver ones, a red one, a black and orange one, and a few titanium ones
Mentioned: 150 Post(s)
Tagged: 1 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6147 Post(s)
Liked 4,092 Times
in
2,325 Posts
If I said "riding without hands is a good way to crash"
Is that saying "you will crash", if you ride without hands?
NO SIR it is not ! So Quit twisting words.
the same applies to handlebars, one way leaves your self open to a crash, it doesn't mean that you will crash.
2 groups of people, those who elect to ride drops on a dropbar, and those who claim "that is not my Drop bar!!!!"
Is that saying "you will crash", if you ride without hands?
NO SIR it is not ! So Quit twisting words.
the same applies to handlebars, one way leaves your self open to a crash, it doesn't mean that you will crash.
2 groups of people, those who elect to ride drops on a dropbar, and those who claim "that is not my Drop bar!!!!"
__________________
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
Stuart Black
Plan Epsilon Around Lake Michigan in the era of Covid
Old School…When It Wasn’t Ancient bikepacking
Gold Fever Three days of dirt in Colorado
Pokin' around the Poconos A cold ride around Lake Erie
Dinosaurs in Colorado A mountain bike guide to the Purgatory Canyon dinosaur trackway
Solo Without Pie. The search for pie in the Midwest.
Picking the Scablands. Washington and Oregon, 2005. Pie and spiders on the Columbia River!
#485
Senior Member
Join Date: Nov 2015
Location: Music City, USA
Posts: 4,444
Bikes: bikes
Mentioned: 52 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2622 Post(s)
Liked 1,429 Times
in
711 Posts
But no. In a race, if you brake in a turn, besides the handling effect, you also get gapped off coming out of that turn in a big way. Then you have to sprint all-out to regain the lost wheel. At 30+ mph, doing this repeatedly (especially in a crit or a curvy road race) can have a big impact on your ability to not get dropped.
That's a lot of downside.
#486
Senior Member
Walking would certainly hurt less. I can do a flat bar if it's got about 15* of sweep or so? Less than that and my wrists hurt and hands start tingling within 5 miles or so.
#487
Tortoise Wins by a Hare!
Join Date: Feb 2006
Location: Looney Tunes, IL
Posts: 7,398
Bikes: Wabi Special FG, Raleigh Roper, Nashbar AL-1, Miyata One Hundred, '70 Schwinn Lemonator and More!!
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1549 Post(s)
Liked 941 Times
in
504 Posts
It just goes to show how everyone is different. No style of bars have ever hurt my wrists, no matter how far I ride. But many times my hands hurt, at least a little. Usually, any position on a drop bar is the worst. No pile of posts from drop bar evangelicals can change that fact.
But I do have one drop bar bike set up that seems to fit ok. Not better than my favorite flat bar bikes, but tolerable. I guess the geometry and set-up is just right.
Sometimes, when taking a curve I find I'm going too fast and wide so I use my brakes. Doing so has never caused me to crash, but I'm certain it's prevented plenty of them. The "you shouldn't brake on a curve" rule is pure silliness.
But I do have one drop bar bike set up that seems to fit ok. Not better than my favorite flat bar bikes, but tolerable. I guess the geometry and set-up is just right.
Sometimes, when taking a curve I find I'm going too fast and wide so I use my brakes. Doing so has never caused me to crash, but I'm certain it's prevented plenty of them. The "you shouldn't brake on a curve" rule is pure silliness.
#488
Senior Member
Written by someone who clearly has never lost rear wheel traction at the start of the turn. The lost rear wheel traction started the sequence that ended in a crash. When a rear wheel skids, it is virtually impossible to regain control in time to initiate a turn.
The sequence:
1. Fast approach to turn.
2. Hard braking.
3. Road irregularity causes rear wheel to skid.
4. Pro cyclist instinctively unclips left foot (because he has skills).
5. Bike tracks straight instead of turning, because rider can't start a turn when the rear wheel is skidding.
The sequence:
1. Fast approach to turn.
2. Hard braking.
3. Road irregularity causes rear wheel to skid.
4. Pro cyclist instinctively unclips left foot (because he has skills).
5. Bike tracks straight instead of turning, because rider can't start a turn when the rear wheel is skidding.
The actual sequence:
1. Fast approach to turn.
2. Hard braking.
3. Rear wheel loses traction.
4. Cyclist countersteers to correct the slide.
5. Countersteering causes the rear wheel regain traction.
6. The jolt of sudden regaining of traction decreases the lean of the rider (flips him up), thus diminishing his counterweight to centrifugal forces.
7. With less force to counter it, the centrifugal force straightens the turning arc, leading the rider into and over the curb.
To put it short, it was not the loss of traction that straightened his track, but the sudden regaining of traction.
When cornering, losing traction in the rear = instant oversteer; losing traction in the front = instant understeer. Overcorrection of either of the two leads to the opposite effect.
Likes For subgrade:
#489
Qfactor
For years one had to search to find a mountain bike with flat bars, or aftermarket bars, with a sweep greater than 5 or 6 degrees. Looking at the sweep on off road motorcycles, beginning decades before mountain bikes appeared and right up to the present, handle bars with less than 5 or 6 degrees of sweep are rare indeed. The wrist position on straight, flat, bars looks and feels unnatural. I prefer something over 11 degrees.
#492
NO LONGER A BF USER
I've finally come to the conclusion that drop bars are not for me. I basically NEVER put my hands on the lower drops. My current setup is a combination of a cruiser bar with bar ends installed (inside the brake levers, pointing forward like bull horns). This is very similar to the $60 VO Crazy bar. To me, this is comfortable and I will likely never go back to drop bars.
Likes For steelrider58:
#493
Senior Member
Join Date: Sep 2014
Posts: 3,893
Mentioned: 20 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1062 Post(s)
Liked 665 Times
in
421 Posts
For years one had to search to find a mountain bike with flat bars, or aftermarket bars, with a sweep greater than 5 or 6 degrees. Looking at the sweep on off road motorcycles, beginning decades before mountain bikes appeared and right up to the present, handle bars with less than 5 or 6 degrees of sweep are rare indeed. The wrist position on straight, flat, bars looks and feels unnatural. I prefer something over 11 degrees.
Last edited by Gresp15C; 09-27-19 at 06:24 PM.
#494
Senior Member
Join Date: Aug 2009
Posts: 8,550
Bikes: Wilier Izoard XP (Record);Cinelli Xperience (Force);Specialized Allez (Rival);Bianchi Via Nirone 7 (Centaur); Colnago AC-R Disc;Colnago V1r Limited Edition;De Rosa King 3 Limited(Force 22);DeRosa Merak(Red):Pinarello Dogma 65.1 Hydro(Di2)
Mentioned: 2 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 551 Post(s)
Liked 276 Times
in
144 Posts
And what about the Illusion of Aero Bike Frames?
Likes For Commutess:
#496
Not lost wanderer.
Join Date: Jan 2013
Location: Lititz, Pa
Posts: 3,359
Bikes: In USA; 73 Raleigh Super Course dingle speed, 72 Raleigh Gran Sport SS, 72 Geoffry Butler, 81 Centurion Pro-Tour, 74 Gugie Grandier Sportier
Mentioned: 72 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 885 Post(s)
Liked 979 Times
in
514 Posts
Anyone who is using the concept of trail braking in this thread and does not have a front fork that is a suspension is talking out their nether hole. Your need to be able to have compression to reduce the trail and shorten the length thus making it easier to turn. The only thing that moderate braking during the turn will do is to transfer weight to the front wheel and giving increased traction. So it is not considered trail braking but weight transfer braking.
__________________
Cambodia bikes, Bridgestone SRAM 2 speed, 2012 Fuji Stratos...
Cambodia bikes, Bridgestone SRAM 2 speed, 2012 Fuji Stratos...
#497
Jedi Master
I used to ride a lot of off-road motorcycles when I was younger and was taught to drag the front brake to turn faster in tight woods single track. Years later I heard someone call it trail braking and assumed they were referring to the kind of braking one does on a trail. Learn something new every day.
#498
NO LONGER A BF USER
I've finally come to the conclusion that drop bars are not for me. I basically NEVER put my hands on the lower drops. My current setup is a combination of a cruiser bar with bar ends installed (inside the brake levers, pointing forward like bull horns). This is very similar to the $60 VO Crazy bar. To me, this is comfortable and I will likely never go back to drop bars.
Likes For steelrider58:
#499
Tragically Ignorant
Join Date: Jun 2018
Location: New England
Posts: 15,613
Bikes: Serotta Atlanta; 1994 Specialized Allez Pro; Giant OCR A1; SOMA Double Cross Disc; 2022 Allez Elite mit der SRAM
Mentioned: 62 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 8186 Post(s)
Liked 9,094 Times
in
5,053 Posts