oldlugs

To me, any bike without a kickstand isn't complete. There isn't always someplace to lean your bike and sooner or later, it will inevitably end up falling. Its always been my opinion that the better the tubing the more the need for a proper stand. Thin tubes dent easier than do cheaper hi-ten tubes.
I generally always either found a stand that fit or could be made to fit properly for my bikes. Even if it meant spending an hour or so on the milling machine making up a proper top clamp. I always padded the frame with rubber as well. I also remember being able to buy rubber kickstand spacers that were made of plastic, they fit under the frame and around the chainstays with the stand attaching to the flat bottom. All you had to do was Not over tighten the thing.

EngrJack

Thanks, OldLugs. Many members have given me thoughtful replies about kick stands. And just this morning I was pondering building a nylon spacer to block a kick stand assembly from crushing the chain stay tubes. I did bye an original American made kick stand that hasn’t arrived yet. That was before others here advised against careless mounting of clamp type kick stands that’ll flatten the chain stay tubes on vintage / classics with thin walled tubes. So, a handmade nylon spacer and loctite thread compound or a nylock nut just might be the ticket. And clear RTV silicon sealer to act as a sealer/adhesive, and thin neoprene gasket material or heavy electricians tape to wrap the tubes with. I neither want to lay the bike down on its side on concrete or muddy ground, nor will I wish to look for a tree, fence, or wall to lean it against—only to have it fall over. Where I’ll likely keep the bike to ride after work is a very bike primitive town with narrow sidewalks, a narrow main drag street, and no bike stand setups with which to secure a bike. My favorite restaurants and clubs don’t mind if I bring the bike inside their business (my old 720 Multitrack) and a kick stand for the newest possession—the old 710, will be civilized. Another pound of weight won’t hurt anything.
Another issue is the meth heads who will steal a bike that’s unattended. They do exist and are bad news!

John E

My first two bikes had kickstands (Schwinn with built-in and low-end Bianchi with bolt-on Pletscher), but I have never felt the need or desire for one since.

francophile 

I've got some wicked pics, but here's one of a bunch scattered throughout the forum.

thook

check out noobinsf's '76 eisentraut thread. "vile kickstand!"...lol

Road Fan

Yeah, my wife's Breezer Liberty came with that fixing plate - it is a fantastic addition! It also keeps the stand from twisting if the bolt works loose.

trek800

Simple, no demand by buyers. How many buyers demand a kickstand? Almost zero.

cudak888 

Sources please.

You've obviously never been in a shop that sold Trek Navigators in the mid-2000's. One of my local shops did. They'd get an entire case of Greenfields, rip the top off the box, and pull the stands straight out onto newly ordered bikes and customer repairs.

That same shop now has a box of Bontrager integrated kickstands for all the Trek FX and Verve models they sell.

I've also seen a bunch of mid-2000's Specialized Hard Rocks with Greenfield stands shoved in them - even when it was impossible to fit a stand without causing the FD cable to rub. But I've seen this enough times to realize that a lot of people - or shops - didn't care about compromising their FD just for the benefit of a stand.

My theory is that the POS stamped-steel kickstands that littered bicycle shaped objects from the 1970's through the 1990's - you know, the ones that don't work - helped to give kickstands a bad name to the casual rider, while the elitism of road cycling has kept the undeserved negativity going to this day.

-Kurt

cyccommute 

Oh, please. Leaning a bike against a wall or fence is not “unstable”. I’ve seen plenty of bikes with kickstands topple over because of a gust of wind. I’ve not seen a bike leaned against a wall or fence topple over.

And I’m not sure where you come up with leaning a bike against a wall or fence being “rude”. Most walls and/or fences I lean my bike against are away from traffic and people. If they fall over, they generally aren’t in anyone’s way. The kickstand bikes I’ve seen topple over are generally near a sidewalk or standing out by themselves. They are more likely to be tripped over than a bike leaning against a wall is.

Use a kickstand or don’t. It’s your choice but don’t try to tell us that a kickstand is more stable then leaning a bike against something. I’ve been without a kickstand for nearly 40 years and haven’t had a bike fall over in ages. I won’t say I’ve never had a leaned bike fall over but I’ve also had kickstand bikes fall over when I used them.

JaccoW

I'm not sure you read my second post that was right behind that one? I live and have lived in cities with bikes parked everywhere. Residents are often sick of other people parking bikes against their homes so most windows have a "no bicycle parking" sticker. And with the sheer number of bikes you often won't find an empty rack or fence to park your bike.
And if they fall over they are in people's way. Or you come back to a bike with broken derailleurs or scuffed paint instead. Because people bump into other people's parked bikes by accident. Or because they just don't care.

But that is my experience. Yours might differ.

Trakhak

I've ridden bikes in high-density cities up and down the East Coast of the U.S. for many decades, and I've never before heard of a "No Bike Parking" sign, much less seen one. You're fortunate to live in a city where so many people ride bikes instead of driving. The OP lives in Alaska, where the likelihood of encountering "No Bike Parking" signs is, I would guess, pretty low, as would be the case for nearly everyone reading this thread.

Riding in cities, I carry a U-lock to secure the bike to a parking meter and and a lightweight cable lock to secure the front wheel to the bike frame---no kickstand needed. Anywhere else, I lean the bike against a tree or whatever's available or prop it by a pedal on a curb or lay it on grass. Never any damage to any of my bikes from doing that, which is more than can be said for bikes with kickstands, which, if and when they fall, invariably fall drivetrain-side down. When that happens, the derailleur or dropout can bend, with the consequent possibility of the derailleur running into the spokes at some point.

So---not everyone wants a kickstand, and better-quality bikes generally should not have chainstay-damaging kickstands installed. If you want a kickstand for a better-quality bike, look into the kickstands that attach at the rear of the bike.

cudak888 

It's something fairly unique to countries like the Netherlands, as @JaccoW pointed out. The no-parking/leaning signs may exist in some Danish cities as well; not 100% sure.

At any rate, it's no reason for anyone here to give the middle finger salute to the cultural norms in those countries. Just because we don't have the same number of utility riders in the US doesn't mean we should belittle what the NL does; if anything, the NL should be laughing at our lack of bicycle infra.

Jacco qualified his earlier post enough for the difference in location to be clear - @cyccommute skipped that clarification by to criticize it from the perspective of a US rider only.

-Kurt

tkamd73 

Only have one vintage bike with a kickstand, and it came that way from the factory.
Bike is very stable when used, no worry about chain stay, or frame damage, and weight is not an issue, bike weighs a ton anyway.
Would never consider adding a kickstand to my other rides, have yet to come up with a stop, where I couldn’t lean the bike up against something, or lay it down, without harming the bike.
Tim



1971 Schwinn Sports Tourer

scarlson 

Yeah, this was my experience too. I worked at a bike shop one summer, 2005 I think, and it was the same deal. An enormous cardboard box full of Greenfields. One on every order. The guy in sales would ask "do you want a kickstand" and unfailingly the customer would nod the affirmative. Easiest upsell ever! That was just the way it was. Then it was my job, as the lackey, to cut another one down to the right length and throw it on the bike. One time the hacksaw slipped and I sliced my finger pretty good on the sharp edge of the newly cut kickstand. That scar is still stained with Greenfield aluminum dust.

My thoughts exactly, the disdainful talk from all the wannabe Lances in that bike shop when customers weren't around.

cyccommute 

That “no bicycle parking” sign would apply to kickstanded bikes as well. A kickstand encourages people to park their bikes anywhere they please. When they fall over, the same issues you are bringing up would also occur. The difference is that a bike leaned against a wall or fence is usually more out of the way than a bicycle standing in the middle of a sidewalk. When the bike with the kickstand falls over, it is far more likely to be in someone’s way than one leaning against something.

As to the sign, you provided the translation which I read as saying “Don’t be stupid and block this door.” I don’t advocate that people lean their bikes against a door...that’s just stupid. The sign also mentions parking bikes in a rack “around the corner” while several kickstand parked bikes can be seen reflected in the window. Frankly, that’s almost as bad as leaning a bike against a door. They are almost as much in the way.

Which bike is more likely to be bumped into? The one in the middle of a sidewalk or the one leaning against a wall? The one leaned against the wall can only fall one way...away from the wall or fence... and someone just walking along is unlikely to just randomly bump into it in just the right way so that the bike topples over. The same can’t be said of bikes with kickstands, especially if the bike is anywhere near where people walk.

francophile 

Ooh, ooooh! I found three more pics today after restoring my RAID array from a hard crash this weekend.

These are three different bikes I've bought off eBay the last 10 years where the seller failed to take pictures of the chainstays and a kickstand was present in the listing and/or at some point in life. With the blue one, the seller felt it was "totally normal on every bike".

The red ones look like the same bike, but it's actually two bikes I bought as a pair.

cyccommute 

I did not skip that “clarification” because it wasn’t in the post I responded to. JaccoW said that leaning a bike against a wall is unstable. It isn’t...at least it is no more unstable than using a kickstand. If a bike leaning against a wall, fence, tree or any other object is “one flip of the handlebars away from falling over”, so is a bike on a kickstand. The one on the kickstand is even more likely to fall over because the handlebars can be flipped in two directions. Granted, one direction is slightly more stable than the other but it can still fall and it can fall in two directions.

Additionally, as I pointed out, leaning a bike against a wall or something else is away from where people walk. To “flip the handlebars” someone would have to go out of their way to do so. They aren’t likely to just stumble into my bike leaned against something. The same can’t be said for kickstanded bikes. Those are usually parked close to the foot traffic way...often in a manner that blocks the sidewalk.

And you don’t think this might have something to do with people not using kickstands?

I’d say that most every mountain bike made since around 1995 can’t be fitted for a kickstand for similar reasons. A dual suspension bike may not even have a place to clamp one that doesn’t cause other problems. Further, kickstands aren’t something you want on a bike that is being ridden over rocks or being jumped into the air or even being crashed with some regularity. Having the equivalent of a bayonet on a bike is probably not a good idea if the bike and rider are going to be mixed around like laundry in a washing machine. Most people who ride mountain bikes off-road realize this pretty early on. And, once you get used to not having a kickstand, it’s easy to see their lack of utility.

My...and many peoples... avoidance of kickstands isn’t because I’m a “Lance wannabe” but because we no longer see them as something of much use. In my early days of loaded touring, I watched my kickstand sink into the sand on the side of the road many times as the bike slowly toppled over. After just a few times of that happening, it’s just easier to lean the bike against something and, once I got used to leaning it, the kickstand just became unnecessary.

kross57

For every bike I see that has suffered damage to the chainstays from the mounting of a kick stand, there is another (or 3) that has dents and scratches in the top tube, fork, seatstays and chainstays from leaning it up against whatever is handy, or laying it on the ground. Not to mention the wear and tear on the saddle and bars. Personally, I would not own a bike without a kickstand. Do what you like. There is no right or wrong.

cyccommute 

I agree with “do what you like”. But how about we avoid the “whataboutism”? There is nothing in leaning a bike against something that would make dents to the top tube, fork, seatstays, or chainstays anymore likely than when using a kickstand. Yes, a bike leaned against something can fall over but so can a bike with a kickstand. No, bikes aren’t so delicate that they can be dented when falling over. And, no, kickstands wouldn’t prevent scratches if the bike falls over which, in my experience, is as likely or even more likely than a leaned bike.

If you lay the bike on the ground all of those issues are even less likely. “Lay” is the operative word. If you “throw” your bike on the ground then, yes, you could damage it. But just laying it on the ground isn’t going to cause damage.

Kickstands crushing the chainstays are a very real issue on lots and lots of bikes. A scratch isn’t a frame killer. A squashed chainstay could be. That bike you posted may have a number of scratches but it is one that would be very susceptible to frame damage if you could even put a kickstand on it. It would certainly have the problem of a kickstand interfering with the front derailer that cudak888 was talking about.

kross57

I can only go by what I see. I have NEVER seen a chainstay crushed by a kickstand. Scratched? Yes. Crushed? No. I have seen lots of dented and scratched frames on bikes without kickstands, much less on bikes with them. It is what it is.

I'm not saying some bikes are not difficult candidates for mounting a kickstand. I consider that a design flaw.

I suppose you can be careful about how you lean your bike. You can also be careful about how you use a kickstand. I have never had a bike fall while using a properly mounted and used kickstand.

Laying your bike on the ground is a mistake. One misstep by some poor guy who doesn't see it, and that's that.

Point is, you can make valid arguments either way. As I said, there is no right or wrong.

scarlson 

For all my defense of kickstands, it's true, I don't use one. It's how I was brought up. On bike tours, I'd rig a guy rope and some tent stakes to hold the bike up, which allowed for easy access to both sides. It was a little bit of work and I only did it when camped, not when stopped for meals or shopping.

If I know it's a good fit, I'm happy to braze a mounting plate onto someone else's bike to make it work!

A lot of motorcyclists take a little piece of metal or wood with them, which they can place under the kickstand when on soft ground to prevent it sinking in.

It is a little crazy to me that nobody makes a nice plastic block to properly secure a kickstand to chainstays. I get that chainstays are all different shapes, but one could probably sell 3 different sizes and have the user file to match. Capitalism prevents this, I guess.

The guys at the bike shop weren't wannabe lances because of the kickstand business - rather it was the other way around. It was a whole toxic culture in a community I was briefly part of in the early '00s and I shouldn't have mentioned it.

francophile 

I can't recall if it was Pletscher or ESGE, but one of the two (maybe both) had double-U shaped blocks that would stop the kickstand plates from denting the tubes. They were (at least) around during the 80s, a few years before I got my 1st wrench job. I tried a quick hunt to find pics but coming up empty.

Edit: There's a modern version still available. If you search the web for 'pletscher sandwich set' you'll find it. rivendell has them in stock. Although what I remember had four pieces, a pair of top and bottom pieces, one pair for each chainstay.

Road Fan

Stamped steel for a BB kickstand, I think, goes back to the late 1950s when I first learned to ride a 20 incher. I wouldn't say they are POS, just heavy and inelegant. The Pletcher is light, functional, off the market and durable, and IMO the Greenfields are light, functional and not durable. Wife's Breezer has a two-leg from Civita (I think) and it is a nice design.

squirtdad

I don't use kick stand on my nice road bikes....mix of no damage, aethetics and weight.

I have seen many abused frames from clamp on kickstands.....

I have also have had my bikes over the years fall from kickstands, vs just leaning them

I do have a kickstand on my utility/commuter and it is the only type I would use the greenfield read stablizer. the way it is mounted I see little risk to tube crushing and it works way better for me than a center kick stand

cyccommute 

Look at posts 15, 29, and 41. I’ve scrapped plenty of bikes at my local co-op that had similar damage at my local co-op. Many of them have been relatively nice vintage bikes that weren’t designed for kickstands but I’ve seen plenty of others. Granted, it is usually user error where they go all gorilla on the bolts but it happens. Aluminum frames are even more prone to damage from the kickstand moving on the stay. That erodes holes in the stay which renders the frame unuseable.

That depends on what the bike was designed for. As I’ve mentioned, mountain bikes are a place where kickstands are not only unnecessary and unwanted but present a possible injury hazard. I have a fast road bike that has rear wheel close enough to the seat tube that a 28mm tire rubs on the derailer clamp. It also has a very light frame that would certainly crush if I used a kickstand. I have other bikes that I could probably use a kickstand on but as I’m used to leaning my bike against things, I don’t find any utility in using one on those bikes.

That’s kind of my point. Be careful where you park your bike. I’ve never had a bike topple over when leaned against something. I’ve never seen anyone else’s bike fall over when it’s leaned against a solid object. I have seen bikes blown over while using a kickstand. I’ve had my own bikes blown over while using a kickstand. I’ve never had a wind blow over a leaned bike. Wind really can’t blow over a bike leaned against a solid object because it is either blowing the bike into the object or the object is sheltering the bike from the wind.

No, laying a bike on the ground isn’t a mistake. If you lay the bike down in the middle of foot traffic, that’s not just a mistake but it’s being a jerk. But I’ve seen lots and lots of jerks that park their bikes on kickstands in the middle of traffic...both foot and bicycle...because they have a kickstand.

Yes, you can make valid arguments either way. But people who use kickstands often bring up invalid arguments like leaned bikes are more likely to fall over.