Gerryattrick

As an outsider I'm not getting into any of the political discussions on the funding etc. of MUPs, but you in the US have a marvellous network of off-road cycling routes. I'm jealous.

donheff

Denver -- Don't let a D** Head drive you away. Thicken up your skin and ignore him.

The MUPs in DC are pretty decent as long as you are riding them on weekdays. On weekends they get crowded with pedestrians, little kids, and newbies. That is entirely appropriate for MUPs but not conducive to a pleasant ride. Mid-day on weekdays they are a nice thoroughfare without traffic worries. Early in the day they are crowded with commuters but that doesn't make them difficult to ride since commuters move at a good pace and tend to be sensible riders.

BlazingPedals

It's a statistical fact that real estate prices tend to be higher near a MUP. That's because they represent a recreational facility, and who wouldn't want a home next to a park? My style of riding doesn't go well on a MUP; but I recognize that many people like them and I wouldn't mind seeing more of them. Avoiding the street crossings, where possible, is a good touch, because I think that's the most dangerous place on most MUPs. OTOH, our riverfront trail regularly gets flooded where it goes under bridges.

Floyd

In our small town we do not have MUPS but for me they are unneccessary because there are streets 'less traveled' that I take ...I can go out to the lake and back for a ten miler...or there are blacktop roads that can take you further if more exercise is needed. I do enjoy hearing about the mups though where one does not have to worry about traffic.

aubiecat

NO!, I enjoy your posts.

dru_

Much as I hate to admit that many MUP's do face the issues that CB HI brings up. They are often funded with federal transportation money, but then implemented as regional parks, complete with the limitations involved, effectively limiting their usefulness as transportation and rendering them as little more than recreational facilities.

So for example, one of the high profile MUPs here in the northern Atlanta burbs is the Big Creek Greenway system. Right now it is two sections of unconnected concrete and boardwalk MUPs. They were built using a mix of city, state and federal funds. In total, it is about 25 miles of pathways, separated by a 3 mile section of where an expensive golf club is fighting tooth and toenail to keep the riffraff away from the course, and crossing county lines. In order to connect the two today, you have to travel .25 miles on a 4 lane divided highway (55mph) without bike lane or sidewalks, another 4 lane divided highway for 1.5 miles (extra wide sidewalk, no bike lane), .25 miles on a 2 lane 45mph road with no sidewalks or bike lanes, and finally a .5 miles on a 2 lane road with spotty sidewalks and poorly maintained bike lanes, before you arrive at the next section of MUPs.

The Roswell/Alpharetta section of MUP actually connects a fairly dense residential area with a decent shopping area, though it is shopping mall, but no market for food stuffs, so you really don't have good access for grocery trips, however the Forsyth section connects several neighborhoods to a very complete park, but little else. Using this section to connect to anything requires a certain amount of bravery and skill, as the road at the northern end to get to the businesses in the area is narrow, fast moving and quite steep. The options on the southern end aren't much better.

Add to that the other major weakness. These trails close at dusk, and do not reopen until dawn. For most of the year, many of us commute in the darkness at one end of the other of the day, further limiting the usefulness.

But herein lies the real crux of the problem. It was alluded to above, but let us articulate it. Precious few people would argue that MUPs are a bad thing, they are good for limited transportation and great for recreation. They are great ideas right up until they are routed through your back yard, or impact your drive time commute. That is when the fights start. So it is we route them through the paths of least resistance, like in this case, unbuildable flood plains that flood about 50 days a year, and then we don't connect these trails when we hit pockets of well funded resistance. The net result creates closed systems with limited transportation value.

This is a tough conundrum. Advocating MUPs is a good thing, but understanding the problems surrounding them is equally important. Good MUPs can run through the path of least resistance, but in order to be truly useful, they need connecting infrastructure to tie them into communities, and that is largely what CB HI has failed to articulate well, though I think that is what he is trying to get across.

CommuteCommando

I enjoy your posts, and sometimes agree, sometimes disagree, but have always tried to keep it civil. I have a growing ignore list. Some people have trouble playing nice. Just ignore them.

I like the bike paths we have. For me it is not all that important to have an entire ride along a dedicated path. It would be nice, especially if there were clearly posted rules, no speed limits for human powered vehicles, segregated pedestrian strips, and free unicorns for all who cooperate. I will not hold my breath on that happening, and will enjoy the infrastructure we get. If half is on paved, uncrowded bike paths, I'm happy with that.

dalameda

I've only ridden it once, but the American River Trail between Sacramento to Folsom struck me as a good MUP system - it was heavily used by walkers, joggers, cyclists, etc but everyone seemed to be following the rules and kept out of each others way. I'm not sure a MUP can be considered good if it is not getting very much use. I also liked that there were minimal street crossings.

Zinger

Pretty good comprehensive post. I have to admit that the two detours to the street in our Centennial Trail up here are because of residential neighborhoods in both Spokane WA and Post Falls ID. Still it's a great link to three towns that probably totals about 50 miles one way (including the detours). That's really not a big deal in our case since those roadways have excellent wide bike lanes.

The OP's network seems like a good one to me though that seems to skirt around the populated areas and border the river. Really it looks fine to me. And there are stated plans for more connections to others. The fact that it isn't well traveled (yet) is another matter but that might change as the connections grow outward.

As far as real estate prices adjacent to MUPs go, I bought my place about a mile or so off the trail at about the halfway point.....So no flood danger and no factor in my cost.

wphamilton

Now it's not that bad! I'm up and down it and a piece of Windward Parkway every day - the Greenway now extends to Marconi next to Windward Parkway! The rest of the way to Forsyth is up and down but not that scary. And you can always go up Windward Lake Drive instead, which is what I usually do. I'd love to have them connected, but honestly nowhere to go in the Forsythe section.

I agree. Yet ... Publix is just a mile or so off the south end, but I used to go to Walmart less than two miles from the Mansell exit. Big sidewalk there if you want it (I don't) You're not wrong, but I think you're selling it short for the utility. I think we're doing great with improvements on the Greenway and also "bike routes" near the greenway. I don't expect it to take me everywhere, Alpharetta/Roswell side is only about 8 miles after all, but if it cuts half or two thirds of the trip away from frantic roadways that's a win.

I look at DnvFox's map and I see the entire city within comfortable range. The railway paths and riverside have some drawbacks sure, but the flip side is they're usually flat and easy going. I don't agree with the criticisms of it.

irwin7638

Trails can be great if they go where you do. I use a couple on a weekly basis and those following creeks and streams are best at minimizing road crossings. It's great to get away from traffic but the trade off is the MTP (Multi-Tasking Path) where people are walking dogs, strolling babies,listening to music and texting their friends while on roller blades. As I explained to to a couple of new bikers, you just have to assume they have no idea that anybody else is anywhere near.

Marc

dru_

I envy a better network, but I agree that this is a start. FWIW, Forsyth is working on the extension out to GA20 and eventually to Sawnee Mtn on Spot Rd. I use the Forsyth section 3-4 days a week to get to and from work (my office is off of Bethelview at Hwy 9). That is a nasty bit of cycling that is not for the new rider (2 lanes, up a nasty hill, high speed, heavily traveled, into a nasty construction zone). The connection parts that bug me is the climb out of the greenway between alpharetta and forsyth are the choices of climbing out union hill to mcginnis ferry/alderman/windward or out the gravel on mcfarland up to ronald reagan over to alderman. None of those are really viable for most new riders, and more than a few experienced ones.

The Publix is up a nasty stretch of road again with limited facilities. Windward Pkwy is far safer because it has bike lanes in sections, and Marconi at least now has bike lanes as well. It is interesting to see how Roswell has embraced the bike infrastructure, while Alpharetta has slowly started to grow some. At the other end Forsyth has built a first class MUP, and then failed miserably at building any infrastructure to get access to it. Consider that there are 4 trailheads in Forsyth and not a single one has either sidewalks or bike lanes on the access roads to them. Unfortunately, this isn't unusual, at least here. Look at the Silver Comet, the Beltline and you see the same pattern, but you also see the same problems. Of those, only the Beltline is open after dark, and in it's case, it is less 'not open' but more 'not closed'.

wphamilton

It's all the wood surfaces in Forsyth that bother me, I don't envy you that part.

... lots of us ride the Alpharetta Greenway after dark ... nobody actually polices that ...

All recent improvements, also Kimble Bridge if you haven't seen it and now they're widening Haynes Bridge Road off that exit (where I live now). Sometimes it seems like they're following me around and improving the routes where I ride

dru_

The wooden part isn't bad except when it's wet (though my one get off on the greenway came on the marconi dr curves getting down the hill, dog on a long leash, inattentive owner). I haven't hit Alpharetta after dark, but I've had a couple of 'talking tocsin from Forsyth sherriff's in the predawn hours.

InOmaha

The setup in Denver looks better then the setup here. To expand on the MUP system it's easier to look at google maps bicycle routing.

https://www.google.com/maps/@39.6330.../data=!5m1!1e3

We need a lot more east-west routes here.

https://www.google.com/maps/@41.2357.../data=!5m1!1e3