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2017- Race Results

Old 05-04-17, 05:58 AM
  #376  
rubiksoval
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Our 10 race Wednesday night crit series started last night. This year they'll have an extra two races on Sunday so more people in the state will hopefully join in.

Went with a move on the end of the first lap, went over the top, did a lap or so so solo, two guys came up, another few guys came up, eventually seven-eight guys total and we had a gap, then 3-4 guys blew up and disappeared somewhere, and the other three of us rolled it pretty well. Got about 30 secs off the back of the field before the lap cards came out. I attacked hard but didn't get anywhere, then there were counters, and then we basically attacked each other for three laps until the final lap where we slowed down to 10 mph until someone jumped. Came around with two corners to go and was able to post up before the finish line.

Good night's racing. Hoping it carries over to the two crits this weekend!
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Old 05-04-17, 08:17 AM
  #377  
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Originally Posted by Ttoc6
Never got back to you (or saw you out there). I was racing for the University of Washington at the event. I was able to see myself in your crit video. Purple kit, black and orange helmet, stealth / matte carbon bike.

I had two pretty bad days. Really wasn't fit enough to compete. Got stuck on the wrong side of a gap up the climb for the first time and then struggled with the descent and the hard 120 degree corner. Ended up in the grass having to get off the bike and remount..
Group echeloned and was VERY close to catching back on but didn't quite make it. Rode the rest of the race hopping up and between groups basically alone.

Crit, ended up with a back row call up so I started about 10 feet off the back to get clipped in and moving before everyone else. Got caught behind the first crash of the day on lap 2 or 3 in the 2nd to last corner. Easily made it back to the group. Then I got caught behind a bigger crash in the hard corner. All the marshalls were telling us to slow down into the corner. Big gap opened and when the group is going almost 30mph, impossible to close back down on that. End of my day 8 minutes into the race. Rode for ~12 more minutes before getting pulled.

Overall a very cool event to attend, but my fitness wasn't there to compete with any of the dudes who showed up. Oh well, get back at it. Racing is just getting started locally.
I always enjoy meeting BF folks. Yea that Club group was as hard as I thought it would be. Getting best two times in the TTT and 120 riders vs 70 in the RR was something that made positioning even more important and difficult.
I really liked the venues and look forward to taking a few more folks out next year. So maybe see you then.
Cheers.
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Old 05-04-17, 08:46 AM
  #378  
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rubiksoval, did I read you just this year switched to deeper profile carbon wheels? Nice result.

Doge, elevation was a huge factor for teams from anywhere but mountain states. My local guys blew their steez on the ITT, one podiumed, and were nowhere near hanging in the RR. Growing up in one of the five flattest states has it's downsides. Daniel looked good out there!
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Old 05-04-17, 09:12 AM
  #379  
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Originally Posted by miyata man
rubiksoval, did I read you just this year switched to deeper profile carbon wheels? Nice result.

Doge, elevation was a huge factor for teams from anywhere but mountain states. My local guys blew their steez on the ITT, one podiumed, and were nowhere near hanging in the RR. Growing up in one of the five flattest states has it's downsides. Daniel looked good out there!
Thanks.

This is another data point for my soap box of perceived effort being more significant than the PM numbers when the rider is changing venues. And not all college kids sleep consistently.

We learned a lot about altitude in Tahoe in 2015. I learned some it in 1977 where I went to boarding school at 7,000ft - without HRM or PM. The same teams that would match us (rugby) at a low altitude would fall apart at our campus. It seems (my gut) the advantage to high dwellers is bringing sea level folks up to altitude over the high folks going down. Daniel has lost short term sprint power and muscle mass living there, but it might be due to less over-site in the gym, more school work or military duty/food. I don't know exactly why, but his max is down 200W or so when at sea level. I saw the charts showing PM readings by altitude and it certainly does not track for Daniel, his 5 min power is near the same at 7,000ft vs sea level. Then, again I don't really have enough data points.
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Old 05-04-17, 10:20 AM
  #380  
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Originally Posted by mattm
Thx - what's interesting is I think I actually try harder and do better in these training crits when I:

a) feel confident of my abilities over others in the race
b) am not afraid to blow up and DNF from trying too hard

So I probably end up racing better because I'm trying harder in these races. I should try harder in all my races!
this is 100% why I am a better group-ride racer than actual-race racer.
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Old 05-04-17, 10:21 AM
  #381  
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Originally Posted by Doge
It seems (my gut) the advantage to high dwellers is bringing sea level folks up to altitude over the high folks going down.
I thought that was common knowledge. Or at least when it comes to soccer it certainly is.
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Old 05-04-17, 10:30 AM
  #382  
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Originally Posted by mattm
Thx - what's interesting is I think I actually try harder and do better in these training crits when I:

a) feel confident of my abilities over others in the race
b) am not afraid to blow up and DNF from trying too hard

I tend to do really well in weeknight crits (training and otherwise). But not for reason A because those things can be mudererous and have a bunch of pros and stuff. For me it's sort of B but even more something that is like the opposite of A: there's no pressure. I never go into those races thinking I should win, just that I want to have fun. Which seems to lead to doing well.
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Old 05-04-17, 10:31 AM
  #383  
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Originally Posted by rubiksoval
Our 10 race Wednesday night crit series started last night. This year they'll have an extra two races on Sunday so more people in the state will hopefully join in.

Went with a move on the end of the first lap, went over the top, did a lap or so so solo, two guys came up, another few guys came up, eventually seven-eight guys total and we had a gap, then 3-4 guys blew up and disappeared somewhere, and the other three of us rolled it pretty well. Got about 30 secs off the back of the field before the lap cards came out. I attacked hard but didn't get anywhere, then there were counters, and then we basically attacked each other for three laps until the final lap where we slowed down to 10 mph until someone jumped. Came around with two corners to go and was able to post up before the finish line.

Good night's racing. Hoping it carries over to the two crits this weekend!

Nice racing! I think I saw the awesome podium shot with the baby?
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Old 05-04-17, 10:35 AM
  #384  
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Originally Posted by Doge
I always enjoy meeting BF folks. Yea that Club group was as hard as I thought it would be. Getting best two times in the TTT and 120 riders vs 70 in the RR was something that made positioning even more important and difficult.
I really liked the venues and look forward to taking a few more folks out next year. So maybe see you then.
Cheers.
I'll be graduating in June, but I'm moving to Utah. Already planning on heading over Grand junction next year to support my teammates that are not graduating. I guess we will get to meet in the feed zone next year!
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Old 05-04-17, 10:38 AM
  #385  
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Originally Posted by PepeM
I thought that was common knowledge. Or at least when it comes to soccer it certainly is.
I guess it is. I didn't Google it.
Is it common knowledge of the difference in resting and max heart rate - and power drop?

Thing is the power drop is interesting. How do you compare it? If sea level watts are X at Y HR, do you say the altitude watts are Z at Y HR too? Or do you just ask the athlete their perceived effort and compare numbers?
VO2 max, lactate levels? I don't know how to compare them.

USAC National Hill Climbing Championship (RR) starts at 9,000' and finishes at 14,000'.
Is that a legitimate race, or a test of altitude performance?
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Old 05-04-17, 10:43 AM
  #386  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Thing is the power drop is interesting. How do you compare it? If sea level watts are X at Y HR, do you say the altitude watts are Z at Y HR too? Or do you just ask the athlete their perceived effort and compare numbers?
VO2 max, lactate levels? I don't know how to compare them.
I don't know either. Should just go by RPE.

I know you care about that hill climbing championship. Have you considered arriving as early as possible (week or two at least) to acclimatize? Might help.
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Old 05-04-17, 10:43 AM
  #387  
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Originally Posted by Doge
I guess it is. I didn't Google it.
Is it common knowledge of the difference in resting and max heart rate - and power drop?

Thing is the power drop is interesting. How do you compare it? If sea level watts are X at Y HR, do you say the altitude watts are Z at Y HR too? Or do you just ask the athlete their perceived effort and compare numbers?
VO2 max, lactate levels? I don't know how to compare them.

USAC National Hill Climbing Championship (RR) starts at 9,000' and finishes at 14,000'.
Is that a legitimate race, or a test of altitude performance?
I thought it was well known that power drops as you go up in elevation. All things physical seem harder, so RPE would be higher than actual power output.


Here's a decent breakdown of expected losses:


Joe Friel - Altitude and Aerobic Performance
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Old 05-04-17, 10:52 AM
  #388  
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
I tend to do really well in weeknight crits (training and otherwise). But not for reason A because those things can be mudererous and have a bunch of pros and stuff. For me it's sort of B but even more something that is like the opposite of A: there's no pressure. I never go into those races thinking I should win, just that I want to have fun. Which seems to lead to doing well.
when I put pressure on myself to do well or contribute a specific thing in a race I feel anxiety and will make bad decisions because I'm worried about running out of time or opportunity.

in the low-key **** I am way more patient and generally wait for someone else to make a mistake and then I throw a counter at the right time, or I let someone worthy get a little bit up the road and bridge to work with them. In races I'm impatient and am trying to be the guy up the road hoping someone will come to work with me.

I've been aware of my bad strategy for years and still haven't been able to correct it reliably.
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Old 05-04-17, 10:52 AM
  #389  
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Originally Posted by PepeM
I don't know either. Should just go by RPE.

I know you care about that hill climbing championship. Have you considered arriving as early as possible (week or two at least) to acclimatize? Might help.
I agree with the RPE.
On the prior question.
At altitude resting HR is higher and max HR is lower (or so it seems). I did not Google that either, just asking around and seeing junior and gasping college kids.

So if you try to hold your sea level TT HR at altitude - you may asplode.

The hill climb is very interesting. About the highest you can find a place to "live" is 10,000'. But so I have read that your body can only adapt from a hematocrit standpoint somewhere Denver level. So living higher won't help the blood much. I guess you can get used to the feel. I tend to think living at 7,000 vs 10,000 is not so different.
We'll be out there anyway so do some test rides - if the road is open.

I think it is a bit extreme for a RR, but then I don't like dirt courses either. So extreme is in. At least we have agreement (I think) he is not riding down.
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Old 05-04-17, 10:53 AM
  #390  
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Originally Posted by Doge
Thanks.

This is another data point for my soap box of perceived effort being more significant than the PM numbers when the rider is changing venues. And not all college kids sleep consistently.

We learned a lot about altitude in Tahoe in 2015. I learned some it in 1977 where I went to boarding school at 7,000ft - without HRM or PM. The same teams that would match us (rugby) at a low altitude would fall apart at our campus. It seems (my gut) the advantage to high dwellers is bringing sea level folks up to altitude over the high folks going down. Daniel has lost short term sprint power and muscle mass living there, but it might be due to less over-site in the gym, more school work or military duty/food. I don't know exactly why, but his max is down 200W or so when at sea level. I saw the charts showing PM readings by altitude and it certainly does not track for Daniel, his 5 min power is near the same at 7,000ft vs sea level. Then, again I don't really have enough data points.
Tracking your kid to keep your kid on track is one thing. There are so many variations in one place at one altitude the body can usually adapt to but everyone has high/low days that just don't make sense. The hardest part is those bad days are usually more important to keep in place than an average day. Heck, you may even be able to get a decent profile on his competition if you invest enough time. Broadly charting response is a worthless endeavor science has tried and failed at.

Everyone handles going up from long term exposure to lower elevation differently. Just like some people are more resistant to the effects of poison ivy. Maximal efforts in much thinner air hurt everyone though. When you have absolutely no experience with that shock. No amount of youth or fitness evens the chasm in ability at altitude. The transition Lemond made moving to CA is a good reference for the point I'm making. I think he was even the one who said climbing is racing in regards to why the grand tours are all in mountainous terrain.

Last edited by miyata man; 05-04-17 at 10:59 AM.
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Old 05-04-17, 11:01 AM
  #391  
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Originally Posted by Doge
So living higher won't help the blood much. I guess you can get used to the feel.
Yes, I'd say it is mostly about getting used to the feeling.

I am from Mexico City. When I used to live there, going to ~9,000ft (Toluca) or even higher (Nevado de Toluca) didn't feel that different. I am sure someone going from sea level to those altitudes would feel it much more. Heck, nowadays when I go back home it takes me a few days to feel normal, although I think pollution has a lot more to do with it than the altitude.
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Old 05-04-17, 11:06 AM
  #392  
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Originally Posted by hack
I thought it was well known that power drops as you go up in elevation. All things physical seem harder, so RPE would be higher than actual power output.


Here's a decent breakdown of expected losses:


Joe Friel - Altitude and Aerobic Performance
It is well known for someone that lives at lower altitude it drops as they go up. What about those that live high?
I believe that is the chart I was talking about. 14,000 ft data on racing cyclists is hard to get I expect, but the chart has it.

I saw junior have his highest 5 min power at 7,000 ft. He has not duplicated it at sea level. Lately he has a (new) PM 50% of the time he rides. So I thought if the reciprocal were true (it should be right?) then he'd do more power at sea level. He didn't. He's about the same power at both.

I looked more and had to sign up for an academic subscription (Academia.edu) to find the source. I recall it uses actual records up to about 7,000 then extended/calculated after that.

Anyway - there are not enough real data points from other racing cyclist at 14,000' to convince me of anything.
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Old 05-04-17, 11:24 AM
  #393  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
this is 100% why I am a better group-ride racer than actual-race racer.
Isn't that the case for everyone though?

I used to play golf in high school. On the driving range or just screwing around on the course, I was fantastic. But once I got into tournament play, I always fell apart. One bad shot would be compounded by another mistake, pushing me into a hole I could never climb out of.
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Old 05-04-17, 11:33 AM
  #394  
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HS leagues frown on aiming fluid.
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Old 05-04-17, 11:52 AM
  #395  
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Originally Posted by PepeM
Yes, I'd say it is mostly about getting used to the feeling.

I am from Mexico City. When I used to live there, going to ~9,000ft (Toluca) or even higher (Nevado de Toluca) didn't feel that different. I am sure someone going from sea level to those altitudes would feel it much more. Heck, nowadays when I go back home it takes me a few days to feel normal, although I think pollution has a lot more to do with it than the altitude.
It is/was interesting to me that the latest and fastest world hour record was set near sea level, while Eddy did his at Mexico City.
Seems Sky thought the aerobic issues were more important than the aero ones. I expect that that decision was not made on a whim and if they thought altitude would be better, they would have done it.
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Old 05-04-17, 11:58 AM
  #396  
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Originally Posted by Doge
It is/was interesting to me that the latest and fastest world hour record was set near sea level, while Eddy did his at Mexico City.
Seems Sky thought the aerobic issues were more important than the aero ones. I expect that that decision was not made on a whim and if they thought altitude would be better, they would have done it.
Cycling Power Lab

there's a sweet spot somewhere in the middle where the aerobic impact is less than the aero benefit. Though SKY is probably aero maximized much more than I was when I went to Utah. I definitely rode faster at 4k ft relative to others than I do here at sea level. Power wasn't hurt too bad and my big size disadvantage was mitigated a bit.
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Old 05-04-17, 11:59 AM
  #397  
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
Nice racing! I think I saw the awesome podium shot with the baby?
I know I saw this podium shot and have no memory of a baby! Wow, shows how observant I am.

(Nice job @rubiksoval)
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Old 05-04-17, 12:42 PM
  #398  
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Originally Posted by Ygduf
Cycling Power Lab

there's a sweet spot somewhere in the middle where the aerobic impact is less than the aero benefit. Though SKY is probably aero maximized much more than I was when I went to Utah. I definitely rode faster at 4k ft relative to others than I do here at sea level. Power wasn't hurt too bad and my big size disadvantage was mitigated a bit.
Maybe you gave me this because of the aero gain part which I'd expect is pretty easy to measure and I take as fact. As to the power part, I don't take that as fact, although I understand the principle. It says you go faster at 9,000ft by a couple kph.

Daniel moves / rides between sea level and 7,000 a fair amount. Holidays and race trips. The chart shows a ~40W drop at 7,000 ft from sea level. In maybe only 5 or so 7,000 near max efforts vs 3 or so sea level max efforts I have not seen much difference. I don't know how to tell max efforts as HR will be different. So it is all based on perceived effort.

Maybe as he settles into track I may get better data, but I have not seen much evidence or data (and I did subscribe to the source article) supporting extrapolating to 14,000'. Data is available from <7,000' and some from Mexico City.

This calculator say for the USAC Hill climb up Pikes Peak where I'm just ignoring aero issues...
-Start at 290W
-15 min in goto ~270W
-30 min in goto ~250W
-End at 230W

I'd hate to base effort on that calculation over what maybe really could be done. And it is complex to follow when riding. We're going to try things a bit, but I think the whole perceived effort method will be a lot better.
Best is follow the right guy...if he can. Might do some Garmin pacing tricks too.
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Old 05-04-17, 04:04 PM
  #399  
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Originally Posted by miyata man
rubiksoval, did I read you just this year switched to deeper profile carbon wheels? Nice result.
Yes, built up a pair of 58mm Nextie Rims with BHS hubs this year. They seem pretty nice so I apparently didn't mess up the build too much. They seem quite a bit quicker in training. But I've won this race seven times in the last three years on al wheels, so don't think they made much difference here.

I did have one hiccup in which I put a 25mm tire on which was too big for the frame and apparently rubbing my nds chainstay for my first four weekends of racing. Feels like one of those things I should've noticed but didn't. Almost wore through the tire in my race two weeks ago. Had a nice bulge in the sidewall afterwards. Yay. So this race was probably a bit faster just by not having to deal with the rub every time I got out of the saddle.
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Old 05-04-17, 04:05 PM
  #400  
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Originally Posted by globecanvas
Nice racing! I think I saw the awesome podium shot with the baby?
Yes! My crowning racing/fatherhood achievement. I can retire a fulfilled dad-racer now.
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