If you get doored, who's at fault?
07-22-20, 01:57 PM
#101
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BUT... If a motorist does open their traffic side door and it hits a bicyclist then that bicyclist is most likely going down into the traffic lane or is knocked into t he traffic lane. If the bicyclists sees the door opening their first instinct is to swerve into the traffic lane to avoid the door. Any of those can lead to a severely injured or dead bicyclists. Best to stay out of the door zone rather than depend on a distracted or uncaring driver not seeing you.
Cheers
Cheers
07-22-20, 02:06 PM
#102
Banned.
07-22-20, 02:40 PM
#103
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Here is how to avoid getting doored in heavy traffic. This applies to moving cars, but it also applies to parked cars.
Beware of your surroundings, but also watch the head of the motorist that is next or a length ahead of you on your right. Invariably, right before opening their door into you their head position will change.
Typically they will look left seconds prior to opening their door into you. Follow the head, if you see them turning left than chances are good they are going to open their door into you.
So, always keep their head in your peripheral vision. If it turns left you need to be on your brakes prior to them opening the door. Also, stay aware of what is on your left, so that if you need an out and were not on the brakes you can escape. The problem in heavy traffic is you will often have a car a couple of inches away from you on your left, so you can't take evasive action. If you are on your brakes as soon as you see the head turn you should be OK.
Assume that anyone in a parked car is going to open their door.
Beware of your surroundings, but also watch the head of the motorist that is next or a length ahead of you on your right. Invariably, right before opening their door into you their head position will change.
Typically they will look left seconds prior to opening their door into you. Follow the head, if you see them turning left than chances are good they are going to open their door into you.
So, always keep their head in your peripheral vision. If it turns left you need to be on your brakes prior to them opening the door. Also, stay aware of what is on your left, so that if you need an out and were not on the brakes you can escape. The problem in heavy traffic is you will often have a car a couple of inches away from you on your left, so you can't take evasive action. If you are on your brakes as soon as you see the head turn you should be OK.
Assume that anyone in a parked car is going to open their door.
I just stay out of the door zone. If traffic is heavy I take the lane and pedal hard so that I'm moving at or very close to traffic speed. YMMV
Another reason to avoid the door zone is gives you better reaction times for those idiots who step into traffic from in front of a parked vehicle.
Cheers
07-22-20, 03:22 PM
#104
Junior Member
It's quite hard to watch the head of a driver who is sitting in a van, a truck, or any vehicle with heavily tinted windows. Plus, if the driver is short the headrest may block you seeing them. Another ting is if the driver leans over and then opens the door you're not likely to see them.
I just stay out of the door zone. If traffic is heavy I take the lane and pedal hard so that I'm moving at or very close to traffic speed. YMMV
Another reason to avoid the door zone is gives you better reaction times for those idiots who step into traffic from in front of a parked vehicle.
Cheers
I just stay out of the door zone. If traffic is heavy I take the lane and pedal hard so that I'm moving at or very close to traffic speed. YMMV
Another reason to avoid the door zone is gives you better reaction times for those idiots who step into traffic from in front of a parked vehicle.
Cheers
A&S is fault-obsessed. I'm a lot more concerned with avoiding the crash than I am figuring out who would be at fault for the hypothetical crash I haven't had.
mr_bill has it right. Riding on the road involves constant balancing of risks, when city riding, you always have to figure out where in the road you are safest, and each position has its own risks. The only way to be risk-free is not to ride, but then you run the risks associated with whatever else you do instead..
mr_bill has it right. Riding on the road involves constant balancing of risks, when city riding, you always have to figure out where in the road you are safest, and each position has its own risks. The only way to be risk-free is not to ride, but then you run the risks associated with whatever else you do instead..
Last edited by Chistophe516; 07-22-20 at 03:29 PM.
07-22-20, 03:54 PM
#105
Banned.
The situation I am referring to, and where I used to spend 8 hours a day 5 days a week is heavy traffic. Traffic is moving slowly, so there is really no option to "take the lane unless you want to progress at a snails pace. 9 out of 10 times, in my situation (getting from one part of the city to the next as fast as possible) I am travelling much faster than the traffic. If you are going to "take the lane" you will not get anywhere. You might as well be driving a car (that is stuck in traffic) In my case if I were as slow as traffic I would lose my job.
Heavily tinted windows present their own set of problems. In that case, yes you must stay out of the door zone but doing so would have costs me thousands of dollars. Eventually, riding in heavy traffic becomes the norm and you will automatically integrate more advanced techniques like the one I offer. If you encounter heavy tinting you will have to figure out a way around. The best way around is to get ahead.
I always assume that the motorist is going to do the dumbest thing possible, and that kept me alive. For most people I strongly recommend staying away from heavy traffic, period. But like I said, I did not have the option. I had to adapt in order to survive.
Heavily tinted windows present their own set of problems. In that case, yes you must stay out of the door zone but doing so would have costs me thousands of dollars. Eventually, riding in heavy traffic becomes the norm and you will automatically integrate more advanced techniques like the one I offer. If you encounter heavy tinting you will have to figure out a way around. The best way around is to get ahead.
I always assume that the motorist is going to do the dumbest thing possible, and that kept me alive. For most people I strongly recommend staying away from heavy traffic, period. But like I said, I did not have the option. I had to adapt in order to survive.
07-22-20, 03:57 PM
#106
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When I am cycling faster than the rest of traffic I always pass on the left side. Never on the right as it is too risky with turns, doors and pedestrians.
07-22-20, 04:51 PM
#107
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(BTW, when I’m motoring, and there’s a line of motorists stuck in the traffic that they are stuck in, I often pass on the right. Because that’s how lanes work.)
-mr. bill
07-22-20, 05:01 PM
#108
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Sure if there is a clear and free lane to the right without driveways and side roads or possibly opening doors. One of the problems is that there are those very few drivers who when stuck in traffic tend to merge into that right lane blocking easy passage.
07-22-20, 06:40 PM
#110
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Sure if you ignore that I was directly responding to the heavy traffic and door zone situation RadDog described and you also deleted the modifiers '"..with turns, doors and pedestrians" That is what makes it risky. If clear of those that risk is not there. Not sure why this causes you such concern either - I thought you were the guy who promoted riding in the lowest risk area which in this case explained by RadDog is likely not in the bike lane in a door zone with heavy traffic to ones left. In that case integrate with traffic or if/when it is slower pass it on its left.
07-22-20, 07:08 PM
#112
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The modifier is "when I am cycling faster...". This is suggesting you'd be fine with passing on the right when going slower (even with your list of risks).
Nah. What you wrote was not well expressed.
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-22-20 at 07:27 PM.
07-22-20, 07:34 PM
#113
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Those weren't "modifiers". They were a list of risks for something you said one should "never" do.
The "always" emphasizes the "never".
The modifier is "when I am cycling faster...". This suggests you'd be fine with passing on the right when going slower, even with your list of risks.
The "always" emphasizes the "never".
The modifier is "when I am cycling faster...". This suggests you'd be fine with passing on the right when going slower, even with your list of risks.
In response to RadDog who noted they would not be able to make forward progress unless they passed other vehicles (implied on their right in door zone) I said I would never do that and always instead pass on left. That is what I do and am consistent with it. In fact I do it every workday on my commute. If there is not way to pass on left I line up with traffic.
As to passing on the right when I am slower than traffic, that is not possible.
Now give me a different scenario, say slow traffic and a wide, clear, turn free, no door zone lane on the right of traffic and of course I will use it. But this thread is about doors and door zones, not clear lanes. Context matters.
07-22-20, 07:45 PM
#114
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My grammar may have been off (they were modifiers to me), but my intent remains the same:
In response to RadDog who noted they would not be able to make forward progress unless they passed other vehicles (implied on their right in door zone) I said I would never do that and always instead pass on left. That is what I do and am consistent with it. In fact I do it every workday on my commute. If there is not way to pass on left I line up with traffic.
As to passing on the right when I am slower than traffic, that is not possible.
Now give me a different scenario, say slow traffic and a wide, clear, turn free, no door zone lane on the right of traffic and of course I will use it. But this thread is about doors and door zones, not clear lanes. Context matters.
In response to RadDog who noted they would not be able to make forward progress unless they passed other vehicles (implied on their right in door zone) I said I would never do that and always instead pass on left. That is what I do and am consistent with it. In fact I do it every workday on my commute. If there is not way to pass on left I line up with traffic.
As to passing on the right when I am slower than traffic, that is not possible.
Now give me a different scenario, say slow traffic and a wide, clear, turn free, no door zone lane on the right of traffic and of course I will use it. But this thread is about doors and door zones, not clear lanes. Context matters.
No one knows your intent outside of what you wrote.
What you wrote wasn't clear and kind of contradictory. That happens!
But that's not Mr Bill's fault.
============================
I'm guessing you and Mr Bill do reasonable things (even if they aren't exactly the same things) but you might not be being sufficiently precise about what you are talking about. You added some of that missing precision later.
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-22-20 at 08:00 PM.
07-23-20, 07:52 AM
#115
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I haven't tested it, but I think if I did that in NH, I'd be subject to a ticket for violating the FRAP rule. I don't think I'd win the argument that not going faster than the flow of traffic is "impracticable".
07-23-20, 07:56 AM
#116
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My Bolding
28-815. Riding on roadway and bicycle path; bicycle path usage
A. A person riding a bicycle on a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except under any of the following situations:
1. If overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.
2. If preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
3. If reasonably necessary to avoid conditions, including fixed or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals or surface hazards.
4. If the lane in which the person is operating the bicycle is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
B. Persons riding bicycles on a roadway shall not ride more than two abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles.
C. A path or lane that is designated as a bicycle path or lane by state or local authorities is for the exclusive use of bicycles even though other uses are permitted pursuant to subsection D or are otherwise permitted by state or local authorities.
D. A person shall not operate, stop, park or leave standing a vehicle in a path or lane designated as a bicycle path or lane by a state or local authority except in the case of emergency or for crossing the path or lane to gain access to a public or private road or driveway.
E. Subsection D does not prohibit the use of the path or lane by the appropriate local authority.
A. A person riding a bicycle on a roadway at less than the normal speed of traffic at the time and place and under the conditions then existing shall ride as close as practicable to the right-hand curb or edge of the roadway, except under any of the following situations:
1. If overtaking and passing another bicycle or vehicle proceeding in the same direction.
2. If preparing for a left turn at an intersection or into a private road or driveway.
3. If reasonably necessary to avoid conditions, including fixed or moving objects, parked or moving vehicles, bicycles, pedestrians, animals or surface hazards.
4. If the lane in which the person is operating the bicycle is too narrow for a bicycle and a vehicle to travel safely side by side within the lane.
B. Persons riding bicycles on a roadway shall not ride more than two abreast except on paths or parts of roadways set aside for the exclusive use of bicycles.
C. A path or lane that is designated as a bicycle path or lane by state or local authorities is for the exclusive use of bicycles even though other uses are permitted pursuant to subsection D or are otherwise permitted by state or local authorities.
D. A person shall not operate, stop, park or leave standing a vehicle in a path or lane designated as a bicycle path or lane by a state or local authority except in the case of emergency or for crossing the path or lane to gain access to a public or private road or driveway.
E. Subsection D does not prohibit the use of the path or lane by the appropriate local authority.
07-23-20, 08:05 AM
#117
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I just rechecked the NH law and it basically tracks with the AZ law. You're right, I may have to try that.
Most of my NH riding doesn't really encounter this situation very often. Technically, I am not supposed to overtake a car to my left, but I do it all the time on any no-parking street.
07-23-20, 10:07 AM
#118
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Cyclists are also allowed to pass slower moving traffic (there's nothing in the state laws that say they can't).
This is basic stuff.
07-23-20, 11:51 AM
#119
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Many states release you from the FRAP requirement if you are riding at the speed of traffic. Even if it's not explicit, there's no real point to FRAP except to facilitate passing cyclists.
Cyclists are also allowed to pass slower moving traffic (there's nothing in the state laws that say they can't).
This is basic stuff.
Cyclists are also allowed to pass slower moving traffic (there's nothing in the state laws that say they can't).
This is basic stuff.
I corrected myself above. The issue is that in NH I could probably count on one hand the number of roads where there would be room to the left of a lane of cars going this slowly so I've never really had to contemplate the issue much in this state. MA, where I also do a lot of riding, has no FRAP rule at all, so that's a no-brainer.. In NH it's only legal for me to pass on the right when cars are "stopped". I interpret the word "stopped" pretty freely and haven't gotten called on it yet. MA explicitly allows a bike to pass a moving car on the right.
07-23-20, 12:08 PM
#120
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You should have known about it before you opined about it. It's basic stuff.
Massachusetts is unusual. It doesn't have a specific FRAP law but it has a requirement to "give way to the right" with a "visible signal". Massachusetts explicitly allows cyclists to pass vehicles on the right (also unusual). California's FRAP law is a requirement "in the presence of other traffic" (not an exact quote). NJ is FRAP by default.
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/Gener...ter89/Section2
Is "stopped" different than stopped?
https://www.nh.gov/dot/programs/bike...wsSummary1.pdf
It's not clear whether "lines" (in "2 or more lines") is "lanes". Seems to me that it means wide enough for both driving/riding straight and legally.
But the law doesn't say the vehicle being passed has to be "stopped" or stopped.
https://malegislature.gov/Laws/Gener...ter89/Section2
Originally Posted by MA law
Except when overtaking and passing on the right is permitted, the driver of an overtaken vehicle shall give way to the right in favor of the overtaking vehicle on visible signal and shall not increase the speed of his vehicle until completely passed by the overtaking vehicle.
https://www.nh.gov/dot/programs/bike...wsSummary1.pdf
Originally Posted by NH Law
265:19 When Overtaking on the Right is Permitted. – The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass on the right of another vehicle only under the following conditions: I. When the vehicle overtaken is making or about to make a left turn; II. Upon a roadway with unobstructed pavement of sufficient width for 2 or more lines of vehicles moving lawfully in the direction being traveled by the overtaking vehicle; III. The driver of a vehicle may overtake and pass another vehicle upon the right only under conditions permitting such movement in safety. Such movement shall not be made by driving off the roadway.
But the law doesn't say the vehicle being passed has to be "stopped" or stopped.
Last edited by njkayaker; 07-23-20 at 12:37 PM.
