Originally Posted by Rowan

Oh well, that wonderful American legal system has just ordered a weedkiller production company to pay out billions to a couple who claim to have contracted cancer from the product's use. Of course, the product is used world-wide and if the people use it properly with due respect for safety, the risk in minimal to zero.

Originally Posted by jideta

Way back when I worked at a real service station, we practically took a bath in solvent. I'd find it ironic if it was chain lube that killed me.

Originally Posted by elcruxio

Alternative medicine has nothing like that. It's alternative, because if it worked, it would not be called alternative anymore. Also if there was proof of it working it'd then be science.

Originally Posted by indyfabz

I had a selenium smoothie for lunch. Now I can't feel my hands.

Originally Posted by no motor?

Selenium is found in beer, I bet I know why you can't feel your hands!

Originally Posted by indyfabz

NFS is the only chain lube you all should be using anyway. Man up and get some. Just don't drink it.

Originally Posted by Mr Carl

now I need to worry about chain lube?

Originally Posted by Mr Carl

I don't really worry about that stuff. I just ride like I don't have a care.

Originally Posted by fiftysix

no matter the outcome of this discussion, i just want to give a shout out to california prop 65.

Originally Posted by livedarklions

So here's the formula for your posts --scientific medicine is bad because it did these specific bad things.

Know what you can't do? Defend alternative medicine. Scientific medicine has eradicated several diseases such as polio and smallpox, improved longevity, reduced mortality from many sorts of causes (including childbirth), made conditions that were death sentences such as diabetes 1, hemophilia, and HIV something that people can live long and productive lives, developed surgical techniques that can restore functionality to people who would have been largely immobilized in prior generations, and a whole host of other things that are objectively observable and verifiable. Alternative medicine has produced nothing but unverifiable stories and claims. It's primary success seems to be in alleviating the swelling of suckers' wallets.

You're putting your faith in an industry that regularly makes all sorts of claims on the labels of the products they sell, then has to put a disclaimer that says, in essence, we don't really mean it.
And btw, your Vioxx example is quite stupid. You do understand that it was scientific research that showed the hidden danger of the drug. Show me anywhere where alternative medicine has actually corrected earlier modality errors, I dare you.

I also double dog dare you to explain where these supposed toxins are stored, what exactly those toxins are, and the actual chemical mechanism by which these magic detoxifiers actually remove the toxins. And no, describing things by using analogies like "it's like detergent" will definitely not count.

You want this argument? Fine, you got it.

Originally Posted by willibrord

Was in my local lbs today and asked for a popular brand of chain lube that I had been using. Was told they no longer carried it because of health hazard, It gets into your blood through your skin and causes problems. I didn't find anything on line, so I am curious about this. I'm not going to name the brand because I don't want to be sued, but does anybody else know of this problem?

I think there are organic not pteroleum based lubes, (no, not olive oil) that are being marketed specifically for bicycle lube purposes.

Originally Posted by no motor?

Sanitation has done more to extend lifespans in the US than allopathic medicine, and medical mistakes made by you're beloved allopathic medicine are the third leading cause of death in the US where we pay more than any other county for care. Yet the US ranked 37th in effectiveness by the WHO, ending up ranked between Costa Rica and Slovenia. You can read my other comment above about the other issues you bring up in your first paragraph.

The FDA notifications you refer to are there due to the policies established by the drug companies to make it harder for anyone but the drug companies to produce research that meets their standards. Some say if the FDA doesn't like it then it must be worth a second look due to the drug companies exerting an excessive amount of influence there. How do you feel about off-label prescriptions? Or is FDA approval not needed for the ~20% of prescriptions written for conditions without FDA approval for that use?

The "hidden dangers" of Vioxx was the risk of cardiac deaths with long term use that was revealed in the original research. That research was proved correct for with use of both Vioxx and the other Cox 2 inhibitors, and about 50,000 people died because the original research was falsified to obtain FDA approval. Which was too bad, because these drugs were a good product when used for short term usage as intended, and only one of them remains on the market today. Anti-oxidants are a class of supplements that aren't recommended as they were before due to research revealing a change in effectiveness.

You seem to have enough knowledge to be dangerous, and I'm not sure if these citations on Pubmed (that's the publication of the US National Library of Medicine, a major player in publishing accepted medical research in this country) will suffice at explaining detoxification or not. Your questions regarding detoxification are answered in detail here: https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4488002/ https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/1749210 And this is not an endorsement on my part for any of the multi-level marketing bs that's advertised either, There's a difference between those products and science based products/programs I've used and recommended to patients for years.

One other point I forgot to mention earlier is first the legal losses and then disappearance of that famed shill Barrett of quackbuster fame. He and his group spent year attacking anything that didn't promote the use of drugs or surgery in regards to anything remotely medical. He spent his career shilling for the drug companies (he couldn't practice as he didn't pass his medical board exams), starting after the chiropractic profession sued the AMA for discrimination and won. Barret resumed their efforts covertly until roughly 15 years ago when he suffered 2 back to back legal losses that involved a judge finding his claims that chiropractic and homeopathy weren't based in science were false, and ordered Barrett to pay a substantial penalty. To the best of my knowledge he went into hiding, hasn't paid nor has he appealed the losses.

Originally Posted by 79pmooney

A little perspective - I used to build fiberglass sailboats. I was a very good laminator. Built a couple of boats for a world champion. (Both winners.) And I paid for it. After 5 years I had fiberglass itch all the time all week, not from the dust particles but from sensitivity to acetone. I'd wake up Monday morning feeling itch free for the first time since that hour the week before. Walk into work and the acetone in the air set off that itch for the next week. Made year six my last in the business. For the next 30 years I had sensitivities to cigarettes, diesel fumes, animals, many perfumes and scents, wool, some people and most people when they were excited or upset. (Pheromones?) I was the guy who could tell you there was an open container of solvent long before anyone, including me, could smell it. (At work, I became known as the canary. But they didn't laugh because I always found the source. (It was that or go home. I couldn't work.)

This thread is about chain lube. 6 ounce containers. I was working with 2 others and we were going through 55 gallon drums of acetone every couple on months. I spent a year working barehanded. Even with gloves, the forced handwash in not-so-clean tool acetone happened a lot. (Put a small hole in a glove while doing a large layup and you have to rip it off when you start to feel the catalyst burn, rush to the acetone, clean up, and get back to work fast (probably bare handed. No time to get a new glove that you will have to fight to get on. Catalyzed fiberglass resin doesn't wait and the faster you work, the higher the quality of the final job. (I did say I was good.)

Reasonable care with little tubes of chain lube and not a lot of other toxic stuff in your life - probably never an issue. Big time exposure to acetone or worse - a lot us had real, life changing consequences. I got lucky. Year 33 after I quit boatbuilding, I went for a physical with my GP, a nurse with a lot of initials after her name. She also had experience with alternative medicines. At the end of the session she said she noticed I had mentioned the common knowledge around fiberglass boatbuilders that acetone carried the fiberglass resin through the skin to the liver; that I was seeing what I had heard others going through when I was still building. She asked me if I was willing to go through a liver cleansing that would basically be a mini-chemothereapy. I said yes. It was just that. The middle month and a half of the 90 day program was not fun. But it was life-changing. Those "allergies" (some of which cannot be allergies like the ones to people) are near gone. I can wear the Pendleton shirts my dad gave me decades ago. I can go to bed without a shower and actually sleep instead of putting myself through hell for the next 24 hours.

More perspective - my journey was with just acetone, that inocent stuff women have been using with nail polish forever. I made a point while I was building todo almost no work with MEK and the other powerful solvents, toluene and the like, IMRON paint and its solvents and epoxy. I helped build one epoxy boat. Two days work. As both an engineer and sailor I love the stuff and have used it a lot at home to make furniture, to repair anything, etc. but I knew that building boats with it would be a huge overload with really bad stuff. And that acetone - I go to Supercuts to get haircuts. The last two women who have cut my hair used to make more money working in salons but no longer can because like me, they became sensitized.

Ben

Originally Posted by willibrord

I was thinking more like this
https://store.ecosheep.com

Originally Posted by livedarklions

"making the liver work through a huge backlog of toxins"

Originally Posted by no motor?

That's the core of detoxification as it's commonly used it health care, it seems like this is another concept you aren't grasping. If you're thinking of the process of withdrawal from drug and alcohol addiction I could see why you would be confused, but your earlier comments seemed to ramble off in the more commonly used definition. https://player.vimeo.com/video/200059607 here's a video that explains how that works if you want to know what you're talking about.

I figured you'd have a hard time with the rest of my points too, no need to worry about digging that hole you're in any deeper.

Originally Posted by livedarklions

mkultra.