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Question for you who wax your chain

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Question for you who wax your chain

Old 03-09-20, 03:46 PM
  #126  
jadocs
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Decided to test the bottled solution on a section of chain. This is after the alcohol completely evaporated. Brushing the chain removes the external wax/PTFE dust. When articulating the chain you can feel that the solution did get inside. Obviously not as good as a hot wax, but you can definitely feel the before and after difference.

Question for Dave, what would the wax look like after the naphtha evaporated? As you can see with the alcohol there is nothing besides wax/PTFE residue.


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Old 03-09-20, 04:03 PM
  #127  
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Why does molten say that you can wax 16 chains with a pound? That's a lot less than hundreds. If the product was dissolved in naphtha, you really could get hundreds of applications.
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Old 03-09-20, 04:34 PM
  #128  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
Why does molten say that you can wax 16 chains with a pound? That's a lot less than hundreds. If the product was dissolved in naphtha, you really could get hundreds of applications.
because they are trying to sell you more. OZ uses 500g~1lb and gets (15,000+km/puck)/(250km/rewax)=60+ chains waxed.
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Old 03-09-20, 04:38 PM
  #129  
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I was under the impression that MSW was citing chains, not applications, so 16 chain lifetimes.
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Old 03-09-20, 05:11 PM
  #130  
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Originally Posted by jadocs View Post
Decided to test the bottled solution on a section of chain. This is after the alcohol completely evaporated. Brushing the chain removes the external wax/PTFE dust. When articulating the chain you can feel that the solution did get inside. Obviously not as good as a hot wax, but you can definitely feel the before and after difference.

Question for Dave, what would the wax look like after the naphtha evaporated? As you can see with the alcohol there is nothing besides wax/PTFE residue.


A chain with liquid paraffin applied looks like nothing is on it. What I see in your pics is a lot of wasted PTFE. Place some paraffin diluted in naphtha on a clean surface and let the solvent evaporate. It will be the same as placing the same amount of melted paraffin on that surface.
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Old 03-10-20, 09:05 AM
  #131  
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Originally Posted by canklecat View Post
He gets the same question so often he probably replies to only a few.

He said the oil only attracts grime without adding any benefit.

For now, at least, he's hot on the melted wax and PTFE powder. Until further notice.


Basically he's just rehashing the research done by the folks at Friction Facts/Ceramic Speed a few years ago, and putting it into videos for folks who find it easier to learn from watching than reading.

And in his most recent video he's reinventing Rock 'N' Roll Absolute Dry (which appears to be PTFE power in naptha) and White Lightning Easy Lube (paraffin in naptha), but with the wrong solvent -- he used isopropyl alcohol rather than naptha. He posted tips for making a portable liquefied lube, but it's pointless and less effective than buying readymade stuff. And he says it'll be necessary to strip the chain again if you resume hot waxing.

So I'll just keep using Rock 'N' Roll Absolute Dry when I don't have the time to set up the crock pot for melted paraffin. Since January I've had to have some overdue maintenance done on my apartment, including completely reflooring it, so I put away most of my bike maintenance gear until the work is finished. I tried RnR Absolute Dry and it performs exactly as claimed, good and not-so-good. It's very slick and smooth, not fussy about application, runs cleaner than most wet application lubes (not as clean as hot wax), but does need to be reapplied often and is pricey for what you get -- PTFE in naptha. So I might try homebrewing my own. I already have the PTFE powder. So I might just try adding my own naptha and see how it goes.

The problem I had with White Lightning Easy Lube is most of the wax was wasted and couldn't be recovered, and ended up clogging the chain and cogs with gummy wax boogers. I had to floss the freewheels and cassettes, and ended up tossing out a chain rather than trying to clean each link with a Q-tip or stiff brush.

Reportedly Boeshield T9 is also paraffin in solvent, but it's not naptha and Boeshield doesn't reveal what the solvent is. It's very thin but seems tenacious. It can be applied to run as cleanly as melted wax, but it should be applied to a chain off the bike, wait for the Boeshield to dry, then put the chain on the bike. Too much trouble, so I use the T9 mostly as a penetrating lube for other stuff, like old oxidized cables/housings, derailleurs, etc.
The reason why I asked him was because he said oil was used to make the mix thinner so that more could penetrate inside the chain links, which does make sense. Since oil is no longer used in the new one, and based on his previous statement, it would mean that less liquid wax gets inside the chain links while bathing now, and the chain is therefore less lubricated.

I understand that oil attracts grime, but I would have liked him to explain why (or if) the new thicker mix is as efficient as the previous one. I did not get this question answered.

Last edited by eduskator; 03-10-20 at 09:09 AM.
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Old 03-10-20, 09:13 AM
  #132  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
The reason why I asked him was because he said oil was used to make the mix thinner so that more could penetrate inside the chain links, which does make sense. Since oil is no longer used in the new one, and based on his previous statement, it would mean that less liquid wax gets inside the chain links while bathing now, and therefore, it is less lubricated?
Or the newer additives help in this regard.

Or he was incorrect at that time.

FWIW, my takeaway from the oil/wax ratio video was that he was adjusting it for cooled consistency, not hot viscosity.
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Old 03-10-20, 12:44 PM
  #133  
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The paraffin oil added to paraffin wax was done to make the hardened product softer and less likely to flake off quickly. It does nothing to improve the ability of the paraffin to penetrate the chain. Once melted, the paraffin has a very low viscosity. My mix of 1 part heavy duty lubricating oil to 3 parts paraffin, then dissolved in 3-6 parts naphtha penetrates deeply, then dries to make a very effective lube.

I don't understand when someone says that much of the wax in a liquid lube was wasted. Some will always migrate out of the chain and deposit on the sprockets and RD pulleys, whether it's a hot dipped product or liquid. My home made wax lube does this, but a little of the same naphtha used to make the lube cleans it off. I either put a little naphtha on a paper shop towel or a half inch artist's brush to give the sprockets a little cleaning.
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Old 03-11-20, 11:34 AM
  #134  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
I did ask him a few weeks ago why he had stopped using the 1:1 Wax & Oil mix and opted for the 10:1 Wax & PTFE mix instead, and he only replied that the PTFE replaced the oil (in other words, he did not respond to my question).

In the video (2017 I believe) where he had shared the Wax & Oil mix, I remember he had mentioned that oil was used to make the mix thinner so more could get inside the chain links, so I was kind of confused after reading his response.

Anyways, it seems like the 10:1 Wax & PTFE mix works just fine.
From memory the paraffin oil was used to soften the wax so it wouldnt just crumble and fall off the chain. That is what the knife blades test was, where he scraped the wax back with his thumb nail.
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Old 03-11-20, 02:57 PM
  #135  
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Originally Posted by ls01 View Post
From memory the paraffin oil was used to soften the wax so it wouldnt just crumble and fall off the chain. That is what the knife blades test was, where he scraped the wax back with his thumb nail.
PTFE does not soften the wax - it makes it less attractive to dirt / grime.

There must be another good explanation as to why oil was removed from the mix. It must simply not be as effective as he initially thought.
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Old 03-11-20, 03:17 PM
  #136  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
PTFE does not soften the wax - it makes it less attractive to dirt / grime.

There must be another good explanation as to why oil was removed from the mix. It must simply not be as effective as he initially thought.
He also preached that a cold water dunk immediately after waxing was critical, too. IOW, a number of things about his process have changed - I wouldn't read too much in to it.
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Old 03-11-20, 04:22 PM
  #137  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
PTFE does not soften the wax - it makes it less attractive to dirt / grime.

There must be another good explanation as to why oil was removed from the mix. It must simply not be as effective as he initially thought.
The quote was paraffin oil being added to the paraffin for softening, not PTFE? They're not the same thing, are they?
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Old 03-11-20, 04:39 PM
  #138  
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The PTFE is a powdered Teflon additive to make the mix more slippery. The paraffin oil is there to make the wax softer. Oz went from a PTFE / paraffin oil/ paraffin wax soak to just a paraffin wax/ ptfe soak. I'm trying straight up paraffin wax soak and will make the xylene, wax and oil mixture as a bottle additive to touch things up when they get noisy.
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Old 03-11-20, 04:40 PM
  #139  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
The quote was paraffin oil being added to the paraffin for softening, not PTFE? They're not the same thing, are they?
Paraffin is such a confusing word because it means two different things in the US and even more different things in the UK and probably other parts of the world and you never have any idea which one people are talking about.
PTFE is teflon. That one's pretty easy.
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Old 03-12-20, 06:33 AM
  #140  
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I don't get all the confusion. PTFE is powdered teflon. Paraffin alone is a solid wax. Paraffin oil, lamp oil and kerosene are all the same thing - fuel oils that evaporate very slowly. Xylene and isopropyl alcohol or acetone are not appropriate solvents for dissolving paraffin wax. Naphtha is the fastest evaporating solvent that will dissolve paraffin wax into a totally clear solution. The solution can turn into a mush as the room temperature drops or the ratio of solvent to wax is too low. Placing your applicator bottle in a small container of hot tap water will return the clarity.

I've been using wax with a high quality lubricating oil, mixed at a ratio of no more than 1 part oil to 3 parts wax. At this ratio, the oil dissolves completely into the wax, with no free oil to attract dirt. Dissolving this mixture with 3-6 parts naphtha with 1 part of wax will create a liquid lube.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 03-12-20 at 06:59 AM.
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Old 03-12-20, 06:54 AM
  #141  
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Originally Posted by Sy Reene View Post
The quote was paraffin oil being added to the paraffin for softening, not PTFE? They're not the same thing, are they?
I know, but I was wondering why the oil had been removed in his new recipe since it was first advertised as beneficial. Since PTFE and Oil have different properties, it would mean that oil turned out to not be that much beneficial.

I'm overthinking this one, but this is just my analytical mind doings its job.
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Old 03-12-20, 07:03 AM
  #142  
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A real lubricating oil in the mix can't hurt a thing, but fuel oils don't really make sense.
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Old 03-12-20, 07:39 AM
  #143  
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Originally Posted by eduskator View Post
I'm overthinking this one
Yup. The guy's a DIY tinkerer. There's certainly value in that and his experience, but I wouldn't read too much in to his ever-evolving process.
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Old 03-12-20, 08:04 AM
  #144  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
...Paraffin oil, lamp oil and kerosene are all the same thing - fuel oils that evaporate very slowly...
This website says they are not the same thing.
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Old 03-12-20, 08:37 AM
  #145  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
This website says they are not the same thing.
It is indeed not the same thing. However, terminologies are different from region to region around the world. For instance, paraffin oil in the UK is kerosene while it's lamp oil in the USA. I believe Oz's oil used was lamp oil, not Kerosene.
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Old 03-12-20, 09:48 PM
  #146  
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Yeah, terminology for solvents can be imprecise and varies among regions. Even "naphtha" isn't all the same. Same with "mineral spirits."

But I'm pretty sure the isopropyl alcohol the Oz cycle guy suggests for dissolving paraffin for portable containers of lube, isn't the best solvent for wax or paraffin. Especially if it needs heat to melt the wax. Makes better sense to just buy some ready made paraffin or PTFE lube in liquid carrier, if it's just for occasional use on trips.
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Old 03-13-20, 07:32 AM
  #147  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
This website says they are not the same thing.
Just like to nitpick? For the proposed use, there is no significant difference. All are inappropriate and not needed to make a chain lube.
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Old 03-13-20, 07:55 AM
  #148  
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Originally Posted by DaveSSS View Post
Just like to nitpick? For the proposed use, there is no significant difference. All are inappropriate and not needed to make a chain lube.
Not nitpicking, I'm genuinely confused by this thread because I have no idea what people are talking about when they use the same words for different things and different words for the same things. After following this thread, I still have no idea how I would go about formulating my own wax-based lube.
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Old 03-13-20, 02:43 PM
  #149  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
Not nitpicking, I'm genuinely confused by this thread because I have no idea what people are talking about when they use the same words for different things and different words for the same things. After following this thread, I still have no idea how I would go about formulating my own wax-based lube.
You may have to do like I did and experiment on your own. Do you want to hot dip or liquid lube? I know for a fact that a high quality lubricating oil will mix with paraffin wax and should enhance it's lubricity, without attracting dirt and it might soften the wax a little. This is true whether it's hot dipped or dissolved in naphtha. Don't use more than 1 part oil to 3 parts wax, or you may get free-oil that does attract dirt. I figured out this ratio by first mixing 1 part oil to 2 parts wax, melting them together and then letting the mixture cool and harden. That left some oil sitting on top of the hardened wax. Adding PTFE to either one can't hurt either, but I wouldn't bet on the miraculous improvement that has been claimed. For a liquid lube I'd try 4 parts naphtha to 1 part of the wax/oil mixture and only increase the solvent proportion if needed. I'm really pleased with the liquid lube, compared to anything else I've ever used.

I personally wouldn't bother with any type of alcohol or xylene to make a liquid lube, since you have to buy an expensive quart of each, just to test. I use cheap Crown brand camp stove fuel from Walmart that will serve double duty as a multipurpose degreaser. It's a lot cheaper than Coleman fuel or naphtha paint thinner.

Last edited by DaveSSS; 03-14-20 at 12:19 PM.
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Old 03-13-20, 02:58 PM
  #150  
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Originally Posted by kingston View Post
Not nitpicking, I'm genuinely confused by this thread because I have no idea what people are talking about when they use the same words for different things and different words for the same things. After following this thread, I still have no idea how I would go about formulating my own wax-based lube.

You can use straight paraffin wax, melted , and just soak your chain in it until it creeps into every nook and cranny. This works well but is a bit of a pain because you need to remove the chain and resoak it in hot wax to re apply. This leaves hard chunks of wax on the chain which will fall off when its flexed.
or you can add teflon powder to your wax to add lubricity to your wax.Teflon, or,Tetrafluoroethylene, is a powder in this instance, also called Ptfe.
You can add lamp oil, also called paraffin oil , to the wax. This softens the wax so it's not so brittle. Kind of like thick slush. It stays attached to the chain better and gets into spaces easier. In the oz video he dips a butter knife into the wax/paraffin oil mixture, and cools it by running it under cold water. Then he test its consistency with his thumb nail to see if it clings to the steel. Plain wax tends to peel off clean. Mixed in the right measure it smears but stays on the steel like a lubricant should.
The above methods all need heat to liquify the wax, first,to mix the ingrediants together. If you use any.and second, to apply it to the chain.
Some folks use an evaporating solvent as a carrier to assist the now desolved wax in application onto the chain. The solvent evaporates and leaves behind the wax, wax/oil, or, wax/oil/teflon,(whichever you choose) mix, on, and in the chain. In the Oz videos he uses xylene. I hate the smell of xylene, and have switched to Naptha, also called camp stove fuel, or lighter fluid, which is a further refinement of mineral spirits I believe.
Some others add motor oil to the mixture, but, to me that defeats the purpose of using wax. I like wax because it stays clean. Oil attracts grit and just makes a big slimey mess.
One last thing about completely dissolving the wax in.a carrier, and this is just my opinion. By the time you cut the wax 6 to 1 to liquify it there isn't enough wax left in the resulting mixture to properly lubricate the chain after the carrier evaporates. I like 3 to one and heat the bottle up in hot water to aid in its application. More wax = more better.
hope this clears things up for you.

Last edited by ls01; 03-13-20 at 03:05 PM.
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