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Any allowance on the stack height difference? Even a few MM?

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Any allowance on the stack height difference? Even a few MM?

Old 07-11-20, 10:48 AM
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Any allowance on the stack height difference? Even a few MM?

so i've found a near-perfect fork* for my long orphanized Masi 3V frame. it's all the way from Austria—an amazing seller called Velosaloon. style that i've been looking for, even the color 'perfectly' matches the powder coat hue on the frame in beyond-coincidental level.

*mysterious tubing (no sign of dove or 31's), pointy&windowed lug, fully chromed and with Campy DOs! weighs a wee over 700g, assuming it wasn't a low-end dog although no pantos or markings on it.

the last bit of agony—trust me, it took a while years and many attempts of buying and selling to find this one—is that: i've got only 28mm of steerer tube left. 133 end-to-end from the crown - 105 top tube end-to-end. no way to go with my fav headsets like Tange Levin NJS or Campy Recordy sorts that are usually come with appx 38mm stack height. i see some Shimanos & CKs are listed around 33mm yet about 7mm short. question is that:

what is the real-life max of difference allowance from you folks' experiences? i'd assume we could be ok with a few mils—considering the stack height suggests 'maximum' threads engagement—but not like 7mm, right?

just curious. if not worth tinkering, i am prepared to go threadless route w a quill extender to get the stem height (and also possible inner enforcement). i know some folks saying it can be risky due to the threaded area weakness, but also do see it's been done with no big issues.

pics are for the eye candies.





story behind the frame:
i bought a frame-only Masi 3V from Ser Thrifty Bill at almost free + shipping about 5 years ago. (and those folks who know, his packing job itself would worth like 200 bucks). no fork, wrinkles on both top & down tubes top suggesting a history of hard front collision. studying the serial numbers on BB, it turned out as one of 3Vs done in their Cali shop. had built it as a single speed clunker commuter with a Columbus carbon fork, and it was surprisingly well-riding frame!!! thought i'd give some love to it, sent it over to Franklin Frames OH. Jack did amazing job replacing both tubes with Deda Acciai OS also brazing the cable stops instead of shifter bosses on the DT—plan was building it with a modern 9-10sp with thummies. had it powdercoated with metallic orange. the original frame was orange+black paint. since then, i was trying to find a right fork searching all over. have bought pro'ly 10 forks & send 'em away for reasons. this fork by far the best matching, aesthetically & mentally. kinda similar to the original Masi 3V Milano ones too.

Last edited by orangeology; 07-11-20 at 05:33 PM.
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Old 07-11-20, 11:48 AM
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If you really want to use that fork you could get a low stack height headset and take it to a machinist who probably can reduce it by 2-3mm, another mm by using a thin washer. If you can get 4mm of thread (about 4 turns) I think you are OK.
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Old 07-11-20, 12:09 PM
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You don’t absolutely need the washer in the headset to gain a few millimeters. I also have stack height limitations on my Miyata, and have been running this Ultegra sealed bearing HS for thousands of miles with no problem. It helps to have two HS wrenches when adjusting. Please excuse that first version of the decaleur - did not work well, but it’s the best photo showing the washerless HS.

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Old 07-11-20, 12:26 PM
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Or spring for that fancy innicycle "adapter" made by joejack951, supposedly will work when you have as little as 27mm of steerer and for a project like this one I think worth the $$. check it out
https://www.bikeforums.net/classic-v...n-headset.html
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Old 07-11-20, 01:41 PM
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Not an expert, but even after measuring more than twice my one cut was probably 1.5-2mm short on the latest fork install. So a couple threads short of full engagement or so. Next time I’m just gonna plan on an extra spacer or two. Still a bit more than half the threads engaged on a Tange Levin CDS. Not bad enough to remove the one washer (has a washer that sort of sits inside a recess on the race for I guess better sealing). No issues even with some bumpy miles, maybe 500 miles so far and checked it pretty recently, everything still tight and snug. Still can’t believe I did it but whatever at this point. YMMV
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Old 07-11-20, 02:31 PM
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You can also gain some extra thread engagement by milling the top and bottom of the head tubes, However you have to take the headset cups into consideration. Taking off too much can result in the top and/or down tubes interfering with the cups and preventing full seating. Also, be aware that removing material from the bottom of the head tube will have a slightly affect on geometry. I don't know how much can be gained on the 3V lugs but with most lug design, it's possible to gain about 3mm in extra engagement.

Given what you've been though with the frame, I'd also consider a steering column replacement for the forks.
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Old 07-11-20, 02:51 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
You can also gain some extra thread engagement by milling the top and bottom of the head tubes, However you have to take the headset cups into consideration. Taking off too much can result in the top and/or down tubes interfering with the cups and preventing full seating. Also, be aware that removing material from the bottom of the head tube will have a slightly affect on geometry. I don't know how much can be gained on the 3V lugs but with most lug design, it's possible to gain about 3mm in extra engagement.

Given what you've been though with the frame, I'd also consider a steering column replacement for the forks.
Doable with one of the methods (or a combination of them) You're so close, don't go threadless. That's the fork. (Even if not the steerer tube.) I ran a bike without the washer between the top cup and locknut on a Campy Record headset for a long time with no ill effects. All steel, nuts very tight to each other.
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Old 07-11-20, 03:40 PM
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thanks for all the inputs. learnt a lot and got some clear idea on what to do. looks like:

1. would still like to go with low-stack threaded HS pro'ly sans-washer + hand-filing meditation where applicable. i've done my diligence searching some 'ternet, to come up with known-sub-33mm-stack HSs
Sch-mano Ultegra(600) 33mm, 105 31mm, DA7600 31mm, CK GripNut 33mm on high-price or rare side & Tange OEMs including Falcon, Levin CDC, Passage all around 31mm on low money aka readily available side. goal is taking 3-4mm out of the height, than i should be within safe margin of 2 - 3mm ish.

2. Inicycle seems a slick option, however 1/8 stem & peripherals are not really my taste. maybe one day.

3. facing/machining headtube ends or replacing steerer tube option sounds straight forward, but not this time. stepping out to even Trade Joe's for grocery still spooks me out. gonna have to stay put low for a while, and building a bike is kinda perfect excuse 'not have to go out'. sigh

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Old 07-11-20, 05:15 PM
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you’ve done all this and waited all this time to find a near perfect fork, why not have a longer steerer installed?


Is Frank the Welder still around? He did two forks for me years ago and there was no noticeable damage to the paint. You can barely even tell they were lengthened.
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Old 07-11-20, 05:38 PM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
you’ve done all this and waited all this time to find a near perfect fork, why not have a longer steerer installed?
Is Frank the Welder still around? He did two forks for me years ago and there was no noticeable damage to the paint. You can barely even tell they were lengthened.
hmmm. loving to study all these endless solutions, indeed. thanks. outta curiosity:
is it entirely replacing the tube, or partially extended? so Frank the Welder is the one for the job? i see the site is on, one in VT correrct?
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Old 07-11-20, 07:05 PM
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Yes just replace part of it. Frank cut them about halfway and added part of the new steered I sent him. Fabulous job

yes he is in VT.
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Old 07-11-20, 07:53 PM
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will definitely look into it. thanks Bianchigirll for the reco.

meanwhile, good ole' Tange Passage has stack height listed of whooping 30.3mm and it's with a thick AF washer that easily look like definitely more than 2mm! no reason not to give a shot when it's under 20 bucks right? not the best choice of course, but i hardly see any bad reviews nor had bad experience with Tange—i've had bikes with Record copy Levin as well as the cheaper version CDS.

unless anyone has had an issue or bad experience with Passage HS, i mean. anyone?

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Old 07-11-20, 08:29 PM
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I think I win the "not enough stack height" contest....

I could only fit the upper race on the fork, no threads above the race at all, so I just used red loctite on the race, adjusted it correctly, let it sit overnight and it's been fine ever since.
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Old 07-11-20, 08:57 PM
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Originally Posted by orangeology View Post
...
meanwhile, good ole' Tange Passage has stack height listed of whooping 30.3mm and it's with a thick AF washer that easily look like definitely more than 2mm! no reason not to give a shot when it's under 20 bucks right? not the best choice of course, but i hardly see any bad reviews nor had bad experience with Tange—i've had bikes with Record copy Levin as well as the cheaper version CDS.

That looks like the best place to start. No muss, no fuss
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Old 07-11-20, 09:02 PM
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Originally Posted by jackbombay View Post
I think I win the "not enough stack height" contest....
I could only fit the upper race on the fork, no threads above the race at all, so I just used red loctite on the race, adjusted it correctly, let it sit overnight and it's been fine ever since.
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Old 07-11-20, 09:17 PM
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Originally Posted by T-Mar View Post
You can also gain some extra thread engagement by milling the top and bottom of the head tubes, However you have to take the headset cups into consideration. Taking off too much can result in the top and/or down tubes interfering with the cups and preventing full seating. Also, be aware that removing material from the bottom of the head tube will have a slightly affect on geometry. I don't know how much can be gained on the 3V lugs but with most lug design, it's possible to gain about 3mm in extra engagement.

Given what you've been though with the frame, I'd also consider a steering column replacement for the forks.
if this is like most Masi frames the “face” of the head tube/ lug end has about a 6 degree chamfer... I have seen the results of folk trying to mill off a mm or so off- looks ugly and presents a knife edge around the perimeter.

i made a purchase of a matching frame and fork... 29.5 mm to work with, I ended up getting two headsets to accomplish it, lower was a cheap Tange, I forget the other no name top section.

i have a Team 3V fork from a 54 cm frame, but one blade has a mid run doink. Henry James Masi crown- kind of needs a set of blades as Masi curves were essentially parabolic
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Old 07-11-20, 09:57 PM
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I am defaulting to the Tange Passage for another project of mine that needs a very short-stack HS, it's not quite as nice as a Levin but it ain't BAD!
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Old 07-11-20, 09:58 PM
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Originally Posted by orangeology View Post
I'll feel that the headset is loose well before the cup falls off the top of the fork :-)
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Old 07-11-20, 10:14 PM
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Originally Posted by repechage View Post
if this is like most Masi frames the “face” of the head tube/ lug end has about a 6 degree chamfer... I have seen the results of folk trying to mill off a mm or so off- looks ugly and presents a knife edge around the perimeter.

i made a purchase of a matching frame and fork... 29.5 mm to work with, I ended up getting two headsets to accomplish it, lower was a cheap Tange, I forget the other no name top section.

i have a Team 3V fork from a 54 cm frame, but one blade has a mid run doink. Henry James Masi crown- kind of needs a set of blades as Masi curves were essentially parabolic
1. yeah. looking at the head tube lugs, don't think it's a good idea to face it. even a couple mm will make it weird i feel. both angle-wise & shape-wise.

2. that 'cheap' Tange pro'ly most likely mean Passage. no other threaded headset seems to have lower stack height. miss-matching 2 headsets sounds brilliant, tho.

3. 3V had several different styled forks—depending on the production time and the shops. especially in their transition time from Milano to Cali, ppl seem to have hard time finding some logics behind the tube choice and parts etc etc. the fork i got is 'deadly' close—except the pointy inner part that i like even better—to the one in the middle of this YJ page. (a few 3Vs in the page, i mean the one getting repaired from the top to the middle of the page here) American Built Masi 3V Frame Service at Yellow Jersey

*edit: just figured it's a Cinelli Semi-sloping crown! the shape is identical except the shape of the pointy lugs inside. https://bhovey.com/Masi/MasiBits/Fork.htm USA 1978-1982 damn period correcto!


and i'm still on the fence of stripping it to make fully naked chromed. (its chromed under the paint)

Last edited by orangeology; 07-11-20 at 10:22 PM.
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Old 07-11-20, 10:39 PM
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Originally Posted by Bianchigirll View Post
Is Frank the Welder still around? He did two forks for me years ago and there was no noticeable damage to the paint. You can barely even tell they were lengthened.
If not, didn't gugie pull off a steerer tube swap on a frame with a chromed fork crown - without even damaging the chrome - by fluxing the living daylights out of the crown?

I'd be calling this genius...

-Kurt
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Old 07-11-20, 11:12 PM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
If not, didn't gugie pull off a steerer tube swap on a frame with a chromed fork crown - without even damaging the chrome - by fluxing the living daylights out of the crown?

I'd be calling this genius...

-Kurt
Aye, that he did. It be on me '74 Paramount.
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Old 07-12-20, 10:44 AM
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Originally Posted by orangeology View Post
thanks for all the inputs. learnt a lot and got some clear idea on what to do. looks like:

1. would still like to go with low-stack threaded HS pro'ly sans-washer + hand-filing meditation where applicable. i've done my diligence searching some 'ternet, to come up with known-sub-33mm-stack HSs
Sch-mano Ultegra(600) 33mm, 105 31mm, DA7600 31mm, CK GripNut 33mm on high-price or rare side & Tange OEMs including Falcon, Levin CDC, Passage all around 31mm on low money aka readily available side. goal is taking 3-4mm out of the height, than i should be within safe margin of 2 - 3mm ish.

2. Inicycle seems a slick option, however 1/8 stem & peripherals are not really my taste. maybe one day.

3. facing/machining headtube ends or replacing steerer tube option sounds straight forward, but not this time. stepping out to even Trade Joe's for grocery still spooks me out. gonna have to stay put low for a while and building a bike is kinda perfect excuse 'not have to go out'. sigh
I've postponed lots of things. Staying home, as much as possible, keeps you, and everyone else safer, generally speaking. Obviously there are exceptions. Played a part in my rationalizing buying a used park truing stand and a chromebook. Long overdue wheel culling (culling of all sorts) begins today...and posting stuff for sale! I've built up 2 "Quarantine" bikes already. Decisions are the hard part (but freeing too) This [sucks] too shall pass. When? How? IDK. Stay safe. Best regards, Eric
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Old 07-13-20, 05:13 PM
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update on a couple things for the folks who might have been interested in what's next:

1. ordered Tange Passage HS from an ebay seller at $15 shipped. totally economic even if it goes failure.

2. contacted Frank The Welder in VT. nice guy, replied right away with logical info. i had asked him to estimate both Threaded & Threadless extension. he suggests only Threadless conversion due to that
A. he'd need internal reinforcement B. but to avoid where the quill stem engages, that reinforcement point would be forced to too close to the crown. basically because the tube is too short. cost was fairly high—understandably so but way beyond the budget for this project unfortunately. good to have learnt, tho, that such a thing can be done & how & where.

will update when i have a result of #1 . crossing fingers!
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Old 07-13-20, 06:14 PM
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Originally Posted by orangeology View Post
update on a couple things for the folks who might have been interested in what's next:

1. ordered Tange Passage HS from an ebay seller at $15 shipped. totally economic even if it goes failure.

2. contacted Frank The Welder in VT. nice guy, replied right away with logical info. i had asked him to estimate both Threaded & Threadless extension. he suggests only Threadless conversion due to that
A. he'd need internal reinforcement B. but to avoid where the quill stem engages, that reinforcement point would be forced to too close to the crown. basically because the tube is too short. cost was fairly high—understandably so but way beyond the budget for this project unfortunately. good to have learnt, tho, that such a thing can be done & how & where.

will update when i have a result of #1 . crossing fingers!
Don't forget #3: Ask gugie if he can replace the steerer without damaging the chrome...

-Kurt
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Old 07-15-20, 12:30 AM
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
Don't forget #3 : Ask gugie if he can replace the steerer without damaging the chrome...

-Kurt
This was quite the feat. Much time and effort went into making sure there was only one high-heat event (the brazing in of the new steerer) instead of two (heating the crown to melt the silver/brass, thus enabling the removal of the old, plus the brazing in of the new steerer). Cutting and, LOTS of filing and checking. He did a great job and the frame rides as great as ever, and feels as solid as anything out there. But to get there, or get there again, time and money for sure. I was given no guarantee of success, but he was willing to take it on. R&E Cycles was willing to take it on as well, and gave me the same disclaimer. They may have been less willing to try and save the chrome, but I'll never know!

The Paramount is currently sitting five feet off to my left, so I get to look at it.
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