ridethecliche

I ride a 54 cm CAAD9 and I love the bike. The frame is stiff, it shifts really well, and I feel that every pedal stroke makes me shoot forward. I love riding it. Except there's this little thing...

I'm 19 and I have a little bit of a family history of back problems. Since I know about this, I've worked out a bit to ensure that I have decent core and back strength. I went to the gym last year and built a pretty good base, but with my workload and needing to get out and ride, I've been neglecting that a lot this year.

I recently built up an 84 trek 760 which is a 56 cm. It's more comfortable than the Cannondale. I checked the cockpit length and the length to the bars/hoods/drops is less on the trek than on a cannondale, even though it's a 56 and not a 54. I was even running more drop on the trek and it felt more comfortable!

In an effort to reduce the cockpit length, I moved the saddle forward 1cm and put a shorter stem on the bars.

Here is competitive Cyclists chart for my 'fit'.

Measurements
-------------------------------------------
Inseam: 33
Trunk: 24.25
Forearm: 14
Arm: 27
Thigh: 24
Lower Leg: 21
Sternal Notch: 56.75
Total Body Height: 70


The Competitive Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c: 54.3 - 54.8
Seat tube range c-t: 56.0 - 56.5
Top tube length: 54.5 - 54.9
Stem Length: 11.2 - 11.8
BB-Saddle Position: 71.8 - 73.8
Saddle-Handlebar: 53.7 - 54.3
Saddle Setback: 6.2 - 6.6
Seatpost Type: SETBACK


The Eddy Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c: 55.5 - 56.0
Seat tube range c-t: 57.2 - 57.7
Top tube length: 54.5 - 54.9
Stem Length: 10.1 - 10.7
BB-Saddle Position: 71.0 - 73.0
Saddle-Handlebar: 54.5 - 55.1
Saddle Setback: 7.4 - 7.8
Seatpost Type: SETBACK


The French Fit (cm)
-------------------------------------------
Seat tube range c-c: 57.2 - 57.7
Seat tube range c-t: 58.9 - 59.4
Top tube length: 55.7 - 56.1
Stem Length: 10.3 - 10.9
BB-Saddle Position: 69.3 - 71.3
Saddle-Handlebar: 56.2 - 56.8
Saddle Setback: 6.9 - 7.3
Seatpost Type: SETBACK





First off, after moving the saddle forward 1 cm, my saddle setback is still a hair more than 6 cm, so it's within their acceptable range. My BB to saddle is about 76cm as is currently set up. This is higher than competitive cyclist's recommendation, but I have the same bb to saddle on the trek and it's comfortable that way, although the cockpit on the trek is a good .5-1 inch shorter.

The top tube on the cannondale is a 54.5 cm, which is spot on for Competitive cyclist, but the center of bb to top of top tube along seat tube axis is 52 cm which is much less than the 56 that's on their low end.

I also have a 100mm stem on the bike right now, but I feel like I still need to go a little smaller to feel right. My legs feel alright at this point of time, but I'm trying to piece together what all these numbers mean. I know I need a shorter reach, but I'm unsure of how to do this. My solution by sliding the saddle forward isn't ideal, and I haven't had a chance to try it yet. Chances are, it won't work out perfectly.

I'm wondering whether the first thing I should do is move the seat down a cm or two so I can get close to the recommended CC guidelines, while decreasing my reach at the same time since the saddle will come down.

Any recommendations?

idcruiserman

Shorter stem and/or swept back bars (Nitto Noodle or Ritchey Biomax,etc.)

ridethecliche

I wrote down what the original measurements used to be and I started making changes.

I changed the seat height to reflect the original CC computation. This effectively brought my BB-saddle and saddle-handlebars closer to the CC range. The BB-saddle is now about 74 and the saddle-bars is now 54. The setback is in the 6 cm range as well. These are some pretty drastic changes, but I tried them it out momentarily on the trainer and I don't feel stretched out anymore.

I'm going to be doing a group ride tomorrow with this setup if I feel better (I feel a cold coming on), and that should tell me whether the setup is working or not.

I still have a good bit of drop and my leg extension feels alright

ridethecliche

(Bump)

johnny99

Don't move your saddle to change your reach. Get a shorter stem or frame with a shorter top tube.

ridethecliche

I'm 5'10 and on a 54cm cannondale (54.5 top tube, 52 seat tube center to top). I think I'd be running an insane amount of drop if I moved to a 52. I'm already at a 100mm stem, the most I can move down to is a 90, which still won't completely solve the problem.

bsyptak

I agree with the handlebar suggestion. Get a handlebar with a 70-75 reach like the Ritchey Biomax/Easton Wing (2008 models) which probably compares to about 90mm reach of your current bars. You'll save 1-2 cm. There are other models.

jrobe

I would forget about all these fit numbers and fit calculators. I got much more comfortable on my bikes when I started using the information in this article.

https://www.peterwhitecycles.com/fitting.htm

ridethecliche

The problem with the biomax bars is that they don't come in a 31.8 or 31.6 (whatever the standard) clamp configuration, which I'm pretty sure is what the stem on my bike is.

johnny99

Try a frame with a shorter top tube and taller head tube (e.g., Trek Pilot or Specialized Roubaix).

ridethecliche

Buying a new bike right now is out of the question...
I'm a college student. I saved up all summer to get this bike, I can't afford a new bike right now...

Surferbruce

take a look at some "compact" short reach bars. fsa makes a couple, salsa poco bars also fit the bill.

ldesfor1@ithaca

I can really relate to the process you're going through and it seems like you're doing a nice job of making changes with a purpose, not just doing X and hoping it works.

I too have made some pretty drastic changes to get a more aero position on the race bikes and have had to deal with some minor injuries resulting from fit changes that I made too fast. Be aware of any injuries that seem to spring up by changing positions drastically. I'd recommend making changes 1 at a time, not all at once.

So, I will say that a shorter stem makes sense or a bar with less reach, as suggested (FSA compact bars, e.g.). I too would second the suggestion to not move your seat forward anymore, too.

good luck! i love my c-dale too!

-L

ridethecliche

Thanks for the info.

The only change I've made so far is a shorter stem (have some miles on it now) felt better than it was before. And now I've put the seatpost down 2 cm and moved the saddle forward just a hair. I used the CC numbers to get close to the ballpark and then used peter white's site to look at what he said were signs of bad positioning.

With the changes I've made, I can hold my back in the same position it was on if I was holding onto the hoods if I take my hands off the hoods (hope that makes sense). Also, with the cranks on the seat tube axis, my heel can just graze the pedal.

I have to say that I've messed with position before just because of this nagging back pain and my knees started hurting within 5 mins on the trainer. That hasn't been the case here so far so it looks promising so far. It's less aero, which is fine because it's hopefully going to be more comfortable.

In the long run, I think I might be better off with the bars that some of you have suggested. I also might get a non-setback seatpost so I can run a little more drop while keeping the cockpit distance the same. I'm not going to do either of these things for a while though. I might start off with moving the seat forward and raising the seatpost to keep the reach and knee angle the same, but again I'm not going to do that for a bit.

If I get a chance later, I'll get my girlfriend to take a few pictures, but I'll have to find an open space to set up the trainer.

ridethecliche

So if I go with a shorter stem and shorter bars, I can get the reach I want without lowering my saddle or moving it forward which would probably be ideal.

Which bars can I look at which have a reach shorter than 100mm and have a 31.8 clamp. Thanks!

Surferbruce

https://www.glorycycles.com/fsawiprocoro.html
these are what i'm considering right now
80mm of reach

ridethecliche

Pretty much look spot on for what I need! Thanks!

Now if I could find something like that at a lower price...

Edit: The easton EA50/70 bars have a 78 reach and a 152 drop. Those might work too since the reach is a lot less! They're 20-30 bucks less too!

Campag4life

Will start by saying you are a thoughtful young man. Your pitful if you want to call it that is you are trying to use a computer program as an accurate bellweather for fit. It is not precise because it doesn't account for personal preference in terms of reach. I ride with about a 10-15mm shorter cockpit then recommended by most fit calculators.

Best advice I can give you is...since you seem technical is visualize reach as the hypotenuse of an acute right triangle from where you sit on the saddle to the top of the bars. If you lower your bars, even with the same horizontal reach, then your reach increases because the short leg of the triangle grows and so does the hypotenuse. Raise the bars and your reach will decrease because the bars come rearward at the cosine of the head tube angle. So reach is comprised of not only horizontal distance from saddle to bars but saddle to bar drop. You may want to play around with spacers or a riser stem for example to decrease reach if that is your objective. Moving the saddle forward to decrease reach is a bad idea generally if you want to maintain KOPS which many dismiss but KOPS may in fact work for you...it does for me even though I concede it is nothing more then a reference point.

At the end of the day each of us have a riding position preference making computer generated fit models nothing more then an overall reference contrived from a virtual ideal and each of us have a bit different torso to leg length ratio that needs to approximately correspond to head tube length to top tube ratio as well...with sta in there also which affects top tube length.
You are very young and will own many bikes in your lifetime and are off to good start with understanding some of the relationships.
All the best in your cycling.

Road Fan

Ride, if you had a good saddle position for your Trek before, put the saddle back there and leave it. If you can orient the saddle level, do it, if not, don't deviate from it very far.

I found back pain of one sort can result from being too curved and "scrunched" and another sort from being too stretched out. I also found making stem or brifter position adjustments (such as a longer/shorter reach bar) in increments greater than a centimeter to need considerable time to accommodate. Inch it along! Same for bar height adjustments.

Really, given the cost of stems, let me suggest you focus on optimizing bar height first rather than cockpit length, still in 5 mm increments. I found a fairly tight range I like for the bar-saddle height relationship. Then go out looking for good old Cinelli and Nitto stems to play with.

This will all tell you if your 56 cm 760 is too long for you or not. It isn't right because it's an Eddy or a Trek, it's right because it works for you now.

Another consideration is whether the saddle is narrow enough to allow you to lean in as much as your back and hand comfort allow. If I have a too-wide saddle, I tend not to rotate my pelvis forward, and hence curve my spine to get lean. Doesn't work for long, at least for this 54 year old spine.

I agree with Campag4life, you are thoughtful and technical - analyze your own problem, don't depend on "absolute" references. Each body is unique.

Road Fan

ridethecliche

I want to thank campag4life and roadfan for their analysis, but I want to clarify that the trek is a 56cm and has less saddle to bars reach. It also happens to be more comfortable than my 54 cannondale, which I'm having trouble decreasing the reach on.

I'm also using the numbers as an estimate and tinkering from there. There's no way I could ride the bike with an almost 120 stem!

So the trek isn't the problem, the problem is how I can make the cannondale fit more like the trek which happens to have less reach even though it's a bigger bike.

I checked the bars and it seems that they both have a 145ish drop and 100ish reach, so the bars aren't different. The stems are about the same length too...

Ack. I think I might try posting a picture of me on the cannondale here just to see what people have to say.

krazyderek

I've played with dual bike fitting for season's now, and i finaly found a good solution. Find a corner in your house with concrete floors, put two peices of tape on the floor 9" from the wall where your wheels are, now put your bike up against the wall with your wheels one the peices of tape, and the rear wheel up against the other wall, use a square (preferably a machinist's but you don't have to get high tech if you don't own one) to mark the center of BB on the floor on another peice of tape. If you're allowed to draw with a pen or some crayons the BB cc all the way up the wall your bike is leaning on. Now trace your handle bars onto the wall using a pen or crayons, if you can't draw on the wall, just tape up a couple layers of newspaper or something, also use the square to mark where you saddle nose is if you like. Now do the same with your other bike, and you'll see where and how the two handle bars really line up. Worked amazingly for me.

ridethecliche

Thanks for the tip!

I bet it works really well. Problem is that I'm a college student and I don't really have the space to do that anywhere.

Actually, I could probably take a big sheet of paper and paste it in the hallway to do this. I think I might try this in a week or two when my trek is built up again. This should be really interesting, thanks!

krazyderek

Just remember to keep the bikes as vertical as possible, and the front wheel as straight as you can, milage may vary

ridethecliche

I have a question.

I was adjusting fit based on peter white's suggestions as a guideline (and then comparing them to CC). So I set seat height based on where my heel would just make contact with the pedals.

I have a feeling that I'm not putting enough weight on my hands and that's why my back is hurting. Would dropping a spacer lead to my putting more weight on my hands or my back? I guess I'd be more forward so my back would be bent a little more, but I can't figure out whether that means I'll be supporting myself with my hands more or not.

Edit: Back to square 1. I just went back to the way it was, I'm going to spend some more time on the saddle that way and see what needs to be done with the front.

Ray Dockrey

They do come in a a 31.8. I have a set on my Specialized that I don't ride anymore. I went with them for the same reason you are. My bike ended up being to big and nothing I did worked to help the reach issue. Here is one place that sells them:


https://www.speedgoat.com/product.asp...t=24&brand=206