IronHorseRiderX

Hello,

Long post - sorry
Basically trying to optimize my training.
My main goal is to increase my FTP from current 4.4W/kg (305W @ 69Kg) to 4.6W/kg (317W @ 69Kg) or perhaps higher.

Most of my weekly training sessions looks good to me, I do not have an actual training plan and just ride 5 time a week 2 or 3 group rides and few solo ones.
I do one very hard ~10min effort on Tuesday, one or two hard/very hard efforts on Thursday and ~1h hard effort (climbing) on Saturday.

Here's how it looks like.

Monday - rest

Tuesday - 33mi / ~1:30min group ride with 10min @ VO2Max climbing effort https://www.strava.com/activities/489831206
This is essentially all our ~10 min climb done right after some tempo work.

Wednesday - easy 30mi / ~1:35min solo ride, 25% recovery, 25% tempo and ~50% endurance pace https://www.strava.com/activities/490580265

Thursday - 33mi / ~1:45min ride - this one I'm not sure about
- either 2x20min at around FTP https://www.strava.com/activities/465349703
- or single "all-out" 20min which is aroun ~110% FTP https://www.strava.com/activities/491366721
In 2015 I did 2x20 version weekly, this year I added to the same session some standing work and also went from 2x20 to single ~20min all-out effort.
I still can't figure out if it is helping or making things worse.
My legs recovering longer after single very hard 20min effort so my Saturday session sometimes gets affected by that fact.
At the same time I start feeling that riding at FTP is much easier - my guess that because of those 20min ~110% FTP session changed my perception a bit.
Still my actual FTP did not went up - it either too early or perhaps 2x20 was working better.

Friday - rest

Saturday - 41mi / 2:30min ride with solid 1h ~FTP effort https://www.strava.com/activities/492969891
Sunday - team group ride anywhere from 50 to 60mi / ~3+ hours, various intensity with mostly 5min and 10min efforts

All rides above from a same weeks which happens to be exceptionally productive one.

I trust my current FTP is around 305W, calculated from this https://www.strava.com/activities/449141771
That was very solid effort but my resent ones not far from it and generally only ~5W short

Anyone has personal experience with these kind of training?
I'm getting frustrated a bit, despite decent progress in my 10 and 20min power I could not raise FTP (1h) for two straight months now.
In the past every time my 20min power went up my 1h power followed, but not anymore.
Am I missing something?

KBentley57

On one hand, if Coggan et al are to be believed, I don't think you could really do 110% of FTP for 20 minutes. That's a tad outside of the long VO2max level of power. Not saying it's not possible, just that if you can do it, either your estimate of FTP is a little low, or your power curve has more of a slope at the 1 hr and greater region. The mantra has always been that intensity is the engine that drives improvement, not quantity, so long efforts at just over FTP power will eventually (hopefully) raise it. You can also push it upwards from even more frequent but slightly lower intensity sessions. I would be in the camp that claimed 2x20@ftp is good, but 1x20 @ 105% ftp followed by a few sessions of 2x20 @ 95% are probably better.

Drew Eckhardt 

Get a training plan. It'll do more for you sooner. That should mean fewer fast group rides.

You're not doing anything to lift your aerobic threshold, so you'll be fast up to 20 minutes but not at an hour plus or at least feel better riding at 95% of FTP.

You may have too much intensity to be fresh enough to really work hard.

Seiler's studies and experience suggest 7-10 minute intervals as hard as possible (I do 10 minutes at 110% of FTP. YMMV) do the most to lift FTP and VO2max.

More than one session past FTP weekly (or two to work on sprints) doesn't increase it faster than more, although more do make you less fresh. That's consistent with polarized training protocols, how Olympic endurance athletes are trained, and Billat's study which showed no gains going from 1 to 3 HIT sessions weekly.

I didn't notice any difference in my rate of <= 20 minute power increase with two 3x10 minute interval days and two tempo rides versus one day of 3x10 - 4x10 (I naively figured more was better like many self-coached athletes) although with more miles below VT1 I got a lot faster over longer distances and aiming for 95% of estimated FTP (90% of 20 minute power) over an hour wasn't unpleasant last year.


You may have too much intensity and/or volume on your rest weeks or not do them often enough (1 in 4 is traditional, 1 in 3 is needed for some athletes). You need those for supercompensation to occur.

You may have too little base to support your workload.

Those produced plateaus for me.

TexMac

Sounds like your recovery days/easy days might not be easy thus not really recovered by Saturday. Don't seem to be doing anything short 1/2/3/4 minute intervals.
I've seen improvement of 20-30w in 4 months fpt (270ftp)
I've been doing the 15 to 20 minutes 40/20 intervals where 40sec @115-120% ftp and 20sec @80% ftp..keep on increasing the 20sec every week till the 20sec power is 40sec power.
I also do 1/2/3/4 minutes intervals with Sat 3hr hammer group rides... mostly targeting road races
80% of my rides zone 2 20% intervals.

Carbonfiberboy 

IME one of the keys to improving fitness is repetition: the work/recovery cycle. That's why we do intervals with several reps. The recovery part is as important as the work part. Varying the length of both the recovery part and the work part will produce different results. Experience and research will help in figuring out what will best achieve your goals, just like you are doing right now.

IronHorseRiderX

Thank you all for comments - some good food for thought.

To cut it short - I decided to go back to 2x20 @ ~FTP , at the end according to strava those rides produce noticeable bigger training load vs single all out 20 min effort rides (140 vs 120).

I do tend to ride a bit too hard on easy days, in fact I only have one which is Wednesday as I rest on Monday and Friday

Sub 5 min intervals naturally happen during my Tuesday worlds and Sunday team rides, no too many and not very structured but still.
Can't quite commit to do proper 5min intervals as they take quite a bit out of me and so I would have to drop my Saturday 1h FTP effort or 2x20 Thursday to them right.

Was thinking about getting training plan but that is quite a commitment at this point.

beatlebee 

Those are serious numbers. Mind if i ask how you are measuring power?

IronHorseRiderX

I have PowerTap G3 AMP 50 Wheels | PowerTap , before that I had 45mm version (also g3 PM).
Like it a loot and highly recommend - latest AMP 50 version is very solid all around wheelset.
45mm one was scary on a very windy day, they changed design and so this new 50mm version times better in cross-winds.
This is the only wheelset I own and I ride it everywhere - training, racing etc, very happy with it.
I know personally many riders with much higher FTP than mine (probably in 5+W/kg range) so I would not call mine "serious"
Honestly not even sure if 5+W/kg for an hour is doable for me.
This year hoping to get solid/repeatable 5+W/kg at 10min climbs and perhaps 20min climbs (once or twice will do ) but 1h will probably require much more dedication.