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Lance Armstrong-- What's Normal?

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Lance Armstrong-- What's Normal?

Old 05-30-19, 07:26 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
So

you admit that men and women are different ?

Iíd prefer to keep menís and womenís cycling separate.
Why should women be different than juniors? Or maybe masters?
There are those in those groups that are significantly faster, more aggressive and train longer. Why create laws around gender?


Hey - we saw Lance interview last night. It was great, I sure like that guy.
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Old 05-31-19, 08:46 AM
  #52  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
There's no other profession where we give someone of lesser ability more simply because of their gender (or at least, there is no other profession where this is considered acceptable).
Happens all the time in the corporate world...ever heard of the glass ceiling issue? It's basically SOP in the very large business sector I work in to promote and pay women less than men just because.
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Old 05-31-19, 09:07 AM
  #53  
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Originally Posted by RJM View Post
Happens all the time in the corporate world...ever heard of the glass ceiling issue? It's basically SOP in the very large business sector I work in to promote and pay women less than men just because.
Read my post again. I was specifically thinking about the "glass ceiling" when I wrote this:
or at least, there is no other profession where this is considered acceptable
It's wrong when men are paid more for equal or lesser performance. The same is true for women. If you're against a glass ceiling, I don't see how you can be in favour of paying women based on the fact that they are women rather than based on their performance.

Furthermore, the "glass ceiling" is an unofficial thing. Can you imagine the outrage if the government tried to make it an actual law that men had to be paid more (or paid the same for a lesser performance)?

By either actual performance, or entertainment delivered (as in generating revenue/viewers/sponsors) women don't do as well as men. Why should they be compensated the same amount when neither the performance nor economics justify it?
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Old 05-31-19, 09:16 AM
  #54  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Why should women be different than juniors? Or maybe masters?
There are those in those groups that are significantly faster, more aggressive and train longer. Why create laws around gender?


Hey - we saw Lance interview last night. It was great, I sure like that guy.
Exactly. No one complains that the white jersey winner gets less money/fame etc than the yellow jersey winner. We recognize that a subset of athletes who aren't the true elite shouldn't be compensated the same way.

If you consider paying women less (for a lesser performance) sexism, how can you not consider paying juniors less (for a lesser performance) age discrimination?
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Old 05-31-19, 02:11 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Exactly. No one complains that the white jersey winner gets less money/fame etc than the yellow jersey winner. We recognize that a subset of athletes who aren't the true elite shouldn't be compensated the same way.

If you consider paying women less (for a lesser performance) sexism, how can you not consider paying juniors less (for a lesser performance) age discrimination?
I suppose folks with our options just don't post so much.
I asked my kid if he wanted to do the Cat 1 ITT or U23. His response was Cat 1 is a handicapped (they are not pros) division and he should compete at the highest level available. Would he do open? Sure, just they won't let him in without a team... That is a simple attitude all in this family hold. If you want to be the best, you compete at that level. If there is a qualifier, you can only be the best qualified. Pay needs to be based on some measure. If more want to watch a group other than open, then the measure is eye-balls.
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Old 05-31-19, 06:47 PM
  #56  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Why should women be different than juniors? Or maybe masters?
There are those in those groups that are significantly faster, more aggressive and train longer. Why create laws around gender?


Hey - we saw Lance interview last night. It was great, I sure like that guy.
Race em all in the same class. Letís see how equal everyone really is !!!
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Old 05-31-19, 09:19 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
Race em all in the same class. Letís see how equal everyone really is !!!
To the OP in this thread that would fix the issue. She would be running as a runner. Even so, in marathons they mix many groups that get group based prizes. The runner gets a pretty good idea how good they are on an absolute scale. At the end they can get a ribbon for best X group, or best Y group, nothing stops that, but I see it better for all. Apply the running example to cycling:
-A junior boy of one age, a junior girl of another age , a masters dude of another age and woman can be equally competitive. Left to current grouping with maybe 1-15 riders in each field each rider will have fewer to compete with that are close to their ability. Sure everyone can go ride hard, and ITT, but cycling is about winning, and you need others/bigger groups to do that. Racing them together the matching is automatic. That woman and junior can work together with the master to beat the other junior... It just offers more racing for everyone.
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Old 06-01-19, 02:26 AM
  #58  
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(S)He should be able to race with fellow (fe)males but podcast guy would rather talk to his 'expert' and use this case to confuse the issue of his own decade long history of organised cheating and threats against those who would have exposed him earlier.

Let's have a dodgy-dame category.
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Old 06-01-19, 06:10 PM
  #59  
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You can have age groups but no gender groups

men, women, whoever else all race together
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Old 06-02-19, 09:48 AM
  #60  
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Still, you have to feel the angst of anyone who has devoted years of effort it takes to, for example, be a competitive runner, only to then be required to compete against a family's Labradoodle that thinks it's a human?
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Old 06-02-19, 09:05 PM
  #61  
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Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
You can have age groups but no gender groups

men, women, whoever else all race together
Why any groups? Race together.
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Old 06-03-19, 09:29 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Why any groups? Race together.
What if a contestant, like the $6M man, was injured and doctors saved his or her life by replacing mangled legs (among other appendages) with bionic parts?
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Old 06-03-19, 10:11 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
What if a contestant, like the $6M man, was injured and doctors saved his or her life by replacing mangled legs (among other appendages) with bionic parts?
Then they won the bionic category.

We now have some competitions where those with corrections exceed the ability of the non corrected. It happens now.

Under the current system, they should not be allowed to race.

Last edited by Doge; 06-03-19 at 10:19 PM.
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Old 06-11-19, 01:38 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by RJM View Post
Happens all the time in the corporate world...ever heard of the glass ceiling issue? It's basically SOP in the very large business sector I work in to promote and pay women less than men just because.
I saw a study posted somewhere many years ago, that had done an exhaustive deep dive into personnel records, interviews, and salary info. Their conclusion was that women were paid less in most industries for 3 primary reasons: 1) In performance evaluation systems where the employee has to rate their own performance and then that rating is adjusted by a manager to match their perception of performance, women consistently rated themselves lower than men; 2) Women were far less likely to go to their boss and ask for a raise, or to go out and get another job offer, forcing their employer to match it in order to keep them; and, 3) Women were less likely to take on opportunities that required lots of travel or long hours away from family in order to get ahead. The result was that women as a whole were paid less than men in those industries through actions of their own choosing, not through an organized program of discrimination or any unwitting bias against them. There are certainly examples of women who have and will do all three of the things above, but the study revealed that as a whole, they did so less than men, and it resulted in lower pay.
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Old 06-12-19, 01:21 PM
  #65  
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On the off topic race together, it is happening now. Just all the same gender - now.

I noticed the Nationals at Haggerstown races, there were Cat 1 men's, U23 Pro/1 but no women's fields.
In Knoxville, the 3 categories of women race together - Cat 1, pro, U23 - same race, one race. Note the top U23 and top pro could be the same. Wonder what then.

Likely the fastest female in the country is not allowed as she is not over 18.
The race together thing is already happening and at the highest USA level:
"The top U23 Woman (WU) from each event will be recognized as the U23 National Champion. A separate podium ceremony for the top-three U23 woman will be conducted with the overall women’s awards ceremony each day."
The above has no money, but the race together idea is a logical and IMO fair next step when fields are small.
In local pro crits a Cat 2 junior female has a lot more money winning opportunity than a cat 2 junior male. A junior cat 2 can race for the $10K purse at DPGP for women. And the girl referenced above won. The junior male cat 2 may not enter the top prize race.

Today I was entering my kid in the CO state ITT championship (he won crit Sun) and noticed the $1,000 for 11 riders so far. Pretty good odds - pay $90/rider on $40/rider entry
The women also had a $1,000 purse too. As of now, 4 riders. Pay $250/rider on $40/rider entry


Obviously the promoter who made most money from entry fees as many of the locals do, would not have a good business model. One model is clearly worse and needs to take funding from other sources. Add the whole cost of holding a course open and it is clear why USAC is doing this.
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Old 06-12-19, 05:05 PM
  #66  
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Paying women less than men for the SAME job is illegal in America and employer can be sued for doing so.

Now it has to be the Exact same job.

Last edited by Rajflyboy; 06-13-19 at 06:04 PM.
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Old 06-12-19, 08:23 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Rajflyboy View Post
Paying women less than men for the SAME job is illegal in America and employer can be sued for doing so.

Now on it has to be the Exact same job.
Except for ~17% of men who outlive their wives (widowers), women end up with all the money.
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Old 06-13-19, 06:05 PM
  #68  
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Originally Posted by McBTC View Post
Except for ~17% of men who outlive their wives (widowers), women end up with all the money.
Good point
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