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New Track Disks

Old 07-22-19, 10:13 PM
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DaleG85
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New Track Disks

Hey all...
Has anyone had much to do with track sprint disk and 5 spoke from Walker Brothers? Just wanting to knows opinions as I'll be buying some new rims soon.

https://www.walker-brothers.co.uk/

Cheers Dale
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Old 07-23-19, 06:29 AM
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People have had a lot of solid results on their wheels.

The five spoke is an updated open mold option. It appears to me that WB upgrades the hub, but you can find it with a different hub set up for a lot less in other places, like Brooks Cycles. As for the discs, they claim a lot of technology and aerodynamics go into the wheels.

I haven't heard anything bad about them.
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Old 07-24-19, 05:16 AM
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Originally Posted by topflightpro View Post
People have had a lot of solid results on their wheels.

The five spoke is an updated open mold option. It appears to me that WB upgrades the hub, but you can find it with a different hub set up for a lot less in other places, like Brooks Cycles. As for the discs, they claim a lot of technology and aerodynamics go into the wheels.

I haven't heard anything bad about them.
Thanks mate
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Old 07-24-19, 06:02 AM
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A few of the guys at T-Town are using the disc and the 5 spoke on the front. I've talked with a couple of them and they like them a lot.
If I ever decide to retire my old Zipp, I'm getting a White Brothers.
PI
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Old 07-24-19, 07:32 AM
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I have two (F/R) Walker Bros discs. They are the older (budget) Revo's, but they have held up well and are good quality components. I did have an issue with some of the tensioners coming loose in my rear disc (fwiw the newer ones are bonded in and shouldn't come loose) and Brian (Walker) was very helpful and quick to get them fixed/updated for me. Good service a few years after purchase.
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Old 07-24-19, 12:23 PM
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carleton
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FWIW, Walker Brothers was on my short list for front and rear discs when I was in the market for race wheels. I later bought Zipp 808s when some came up locally for sale as they were a better value and only a few miles away and available (Walkers were on backorder).

Even after buying the 808s I was still considering getting front/rear discs from Walker Bros.

I've heard nothing but good things about them from Enduros and Sprinters alike.
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Old 07-24-19, 11:43 PM
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DaleG85
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Thanks everyone...

I was thinking 5 spoke front, then rear ESC sprint disk.

I don't think I can justify the new ghost wheel.

The only think I'm not sure I like so far is the open mold 5 spoke.

Dale
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Old 07-25-19, 09:05 AM
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Originally Posted by DaleG85 View Post
The only think I'm not sure I like so far is the open mold 5 spoke.
Just because a wheel is 5-spoke doesn't make it slippery or fast.

Notice how road TT specialists (including top pros) do not use 5 spokes. They use deep dish wheels.

Mavic won't publish wind tunnel results for the Io. All of their "engineering talk" is about their deep dish wheels

https://engineerstalk.mavic.com/en/

Zipp won't make a 5 spoke. Mavic doesn't list a 5 spoke as a TT option.

It's almost as though 5 spokes don't test faster than deep dish wheels

The Io is Mavic's most expensive wheel. You'd think they'd come with "receipts" proving that it's worth every penny. Nope.

Last edited by carleton; 07-25-19 at 09:10 AM.
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Old 07-25-19, 09:16 AM
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Notice how the front disc is now the go-to wheel for time trials indoors...and outdoors as well (for the daring).

Why not 5 spokes?

If only there were a wheel style close to a front disc but easier to handle in the wind.





Hmmm....



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Old 07-25-19, 10:20 AM
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Deeper isn't necessarily faster in the 0 degree yaw indoor environment. Alex Simmons field tested an 808 and original Shamal years ago and found that the later tested just as fast as the 808.
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Old 07-25-19, 11:10 AM
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A lot of the iO's prevalence is owed to Mavic basically handing them out to potential high end riders over the years. Then there is the "bling" factor, which is hard to compare with any other wheel... nothing looks as cool as an iO. The trifecta is the stiffness... the iO is a stiff wheel, if you're a monster sprinter you want a stiff wheel. On the "small benefits" side, you also have a wheel that is pretty bombproof (many being 10-20 years old still in use) and holds it's resell value like no other. (also corner case'ish but you can run an iO in any race and some races don't allow front discs)

All that said... yeah, probably not the fastest wheel you can buy. Although the original is a narrow rim and with a good tire is likely on par with most "fast" wheels at the kind of yaw you're going to see on the track...generally... (no idea about the Rio) It's probably a little behind a Zipp808/Hed3 (although the H3 is a pretty flimsy wheel... not stiff enough for a sprinter)

When it comes to open mould wheels it's really a crapshoot, and doubly so with 3/4/5 spoke wheels. Some of the "good" ones can test pretty quick (I've got an iO clone that tests pretty close to my other aero wheels - H3, Jet9, etc) but when they are bad they are often very bad. It's hard to guess which is which, but some things to look at/for are rim width (in general the old "narrow is aero" is where you want to be with wheels you're gambling on) and whether the "spokes" are foils or not. (and whether the foils look intelligently made) - Specifically to the WBHi5 - 20mm rim width (pretty narrow, a little wider than the old iO, but in general tires are a little wider than they were when the iO was designed) and from the one picture I can find, it looks like the spokes are foil shaped.

Keep in mind with a 20mm width rim, you really limit yourself in tire choice if you actually want the wheel to be fast. A big tire/narrow rim combo is almost always worse than just running your training wheel with a tire that fits.

Last edited by Morelock; 07-25-19 at 11:13 AM.
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Old 07-25-19, 01:18 PM
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I agree Dalai. My point was more about HED, Zipp and others publishing their tests. Also, most velodromes are outdoors...with wind at not-zero yaw.

Excellent analysis, Morelock.

Any speculation as to why Mavic won’t publish any wind tunnel data? Just the ole cycling marketing lines where you sprinkle “lighter”, “stiffer”, and “faster” randomly on the product page.
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Old 07-25-19, 01:24 PM
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Maybe I need to dust off my old textbooks and remind myself how to design a proper test of all of this.

Maybe this will be a great winter project.

One average rider.
One high-end frame.
Drop and aerobars.
Multiple wheelsets. (We’ll have to ask for loaners from folks)
Publish the plan here. Get feedback and tips.
Test at a wind tunnel.
Publish the results here.

Thoughts?
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Old 07-25-19, 02:10 PM
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In this post, Josh from Silca says he worked for Zipp and ran the IO through a wind tunnel: https://forum.slowtwitch.com/forum/S...ics)_P5988702/

It repeats what's been reported in this forum many times, the IO and 808 are pretty similar aerodynamically - with the 808 being better in some circumstances, but the IO is much stiffer. Plus, there is the mental game - you lose on the same equipment as your competition, they're faster. If you lose on different equipment, it's the equipment.


As for why they don't use 5 spokes in TTs, that probably has more to do with the fact that they use tri-spokes, which are faster than 5-spokes but not as stiff.
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Old 07-25-19, 02:19 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post

Any speculation as to why Mavic won’t publish any wind tunnel data? Just the ole cycling marketing lines where you sprinkle “lighter”, “stiffer”, and “faster” randomly on the product page.
Pretty much you nailed it above as to the lack of data. (Which, over ~20 years, Mavic no doubt has) It's not the fastest wheel. But if you've got the most popular wheel... you definitely don't want to tell people it's not fastest

As for the test protocol

One average rider - depends on your thought process as to what's "worse" for your data results - having a bike with no rider, bike with a dummy that is stationary or having the bike + a rider who introduces variance
One high-end frame
Drop and aerobars - Again heavily rider dependent. Any data from drops/aerobars will not help anyone else except the rider in the test.
Multiple wheelsets - You need to standardize tires probably as much as possible. (can't just run 1 on all of them though... as the optimal tire for an iO and for a Firecrest/modern rim will be vastly different. You can probably get away with a 19mm and a 22/23mm though) *also worth noting changing wheels in a tunnel takes a lot of time. ($$$) especially the rear.
Publish the plan here. Get feedback and tips - heh...
Test at a wind tunnel - I know a guy
Publish the results here - I've heard you acquire sainthood for posting private data

All that said, one reason I generally don't throw out my own data from tunnel visits is that it's so hard (even in a tunnel, the most controlled setting) to be confident that what you're saying is true... well, let me rephrase, that it's true for the reason that the spreadsheet says it is.
ie - So if I go to the tunnel and do a run comparing 38 (fairly standard) to 33 (narrow) handlebars and come up with a cda difference of .323 and .30 then the automatic conclusion is 33's are way better. If you were the 33 bar manufacturer... you stop right there but if you're the rider trying to learn/share something useful... you need to figure out WHY going 5cm narrower dropped your cda. was it just less surface area of the bar itself (unlikely) or was it your shoulders changing width, more/less of your bicep/forearm in the wind... elbows tucked in or splayed out? (not to mention trying to standardize the reach between the drops of two sets of bars) - sure in the end you get *your* answer - 33's are faster than 38's. But you didn't help anyone else or even figure out exactly why. The unfortunate reality though is you can't chase these rabbit holes without an inexhaustible budget, and most of us can't afford more than an hour or two. :/
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Old 07-25-19, 10:13 PM
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Thanks guys,
I really appreciate the help/confusion haha.

That link to the guys who had tested in the wind tunnel was great.

Just a little about me....
I'm pretty new to this, below average in speed, heavier than most (105kg) and if we're putting me into a category I would be a sprinter. But I try to always try to buy quality/performance.

I train both indoors and outdoors. I think most of my racing would be outdoors and some in.

So options so far are (all new):
- Mavic Io and disk (most expensive)
- Zipp 404 / Super 9 ($200 less than mavic)
- Zipp 404 / 900 disk ($1200 less)

I was told go the 404 over the 808 because it was stiffer???

Last edited by DaleG85; 07-25-19 at 11:42 PM.
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Old 07-25-19, 10:40 PM
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My last build I went with the PRO disc/5 spoke combo. I have no idea what the wind tunnel results are and ive forgotten the exact price - (or even the ballpark price) -- but I know it wasn't the same as the Mavic

Might be something to add to the list to look into
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Old 07-26-19, 06:24 AM
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The FFWD Five-Spoke and Disc combo are another option. They're pretty highly regarded wheels, and seem to be the next choice for folks who cannot afford Mavic or Corima.

Brooks Cycles in the UK had decent deals on them recently.
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Old 07-26-19, 02:25 PM
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Originally Posted by DaleG85 View Post
Thanks guys,
I really appreciate the help/confusion haha.

That link to the guys who had tested in the wind tunnel was great.

Just a little about me....
I'm pretty new to this, below average in speed, heavier than most (105kg) and if we're putting me into a category I would be a sprinter. But I try to always try to buy quality/performance.

I train both indoors and outdoors. I think most of my racing would be outdoors and some in.

So options so far are (all new):
- Mavic Io and disk (most expensive)
- Zipp 404 / Super 9 ($200 less than mavic)
- Zipp 404 / 900 disk ($1200 less)

I was told go the 404 over the 808 because it was stiffer???
Zipp 808 Track is very stiff. I believe it's made using a different and/or thicker layup than the road one. The road 808 might seem mushy on the track. The road set is 18/24 spokes front/rear. Track is 20/24 front/rear. That alone will make for a relatively stiffer front wheel between the two.

I'm heavier than you and I've owned Io+Comete and Zipp 808 Track and the 808 track was just as stiff, even on indoor and outdoor 250M tracks (LA and Frisco). My times were the same using both sets.

404s are aero, but real gains will come when you get to 808s. So, between the two, get the 808s.

Have you seen this thread?: https://www.bikeforums.net/track-cyc...ck-wheels.html

Also, if you plan to run a disc, then really you are talking about 808 front disc rear vs Io front and disc rear. However, I do like the lenticular Mavic disc over the flat Zipp disc. My ideal setup would be Zipp 808 (lenticular) front and Mavic Comete (lenticular) rear disc.

I will bet right now, $100, that that setup will prove to be as fast or faster than the Io + Comete set. I'll leave this post up for any takers.

Last edited by carleton; 07-26-19 at 02:33 PM.
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Old 07-26-19, 02:35 PM
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And as proof that I put my money where my mouth is, my last set of race wheels before I quit was a set of Zipp 808 front/rear. I bought a Zipp 900 but couldn't find a track adapter axle so was on the hunt for a disc option. Every attempt to buy a Comete used failed (including buying one from "NATER HERE!!" who had one for sale).
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Old 07-26-19, 10:33 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
My ideal setup would be Zipp 808 (lenticular) front and Mavic Comete (lenticular) rear disc.

I will bet right now, $100, that that setup will prove to be as fast or faster than the Io + Comete set. I'll leave this post up for any takers.
Always appreciate your input Carleton. Could always try an 808 front / Walker Brothers disk rear 🤔
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Old 07-27-19, 06:06 AM
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Only thing to add/caution - lenticular discs do have clearance issues with some bike frames. Notably the T3/T4, but probably others as well. Just something to be aware of.
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Old 07-27-19, 04:22 PM
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I would warn off anyone looking at the Zipp 900. I feel the hub design is pretty weak and the bearings in there are not up to the job, just too small for the loads they see. I only use my disc a handful of times each year but the bearings go notchy on a regular basis, and are very fussy to get installed correctly. Shops have done it wrong twice for me. If buying new again I would go FFWD if looking for the same price point and am currently in the market for a used Mavic/Campy/Araya disc to replace this one.
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Old 07-27-19, 04:56 PM
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Originally Posted by DaleG85 View Post
Always appreciate your input Carleton. Could always try an 808 front / Walker Brothers disk rear 🤔
That was one of the options on my list.

Originally Posted by Morelock View Post
Only thing to add/caution - lenticular discs do have clearance issues with some bike frames. Notably the T3/T4, but probably others as well. Just something to be aware of.
You are right. It was a tight fit on my LOOK 496.
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Old 07-27-19, 07:18 PM
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Originally Posted by carleton View Post
That was one of the options on my list.



You are right. It was a tight fit on my LOOK 496.
The room was a worry of mine... I have a LOOK 875 and it's pretty tight
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