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Geoffrey Butler... How would you build it...

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Geoffrey Butler... How would you build it...

Old 09-05-19, 06:55 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by Bad Lag View Post
I'd build it up to be the race bike it was intended to be.

The only serious question I have is about the wheel size it was intended to use - 700c or 27 1/4". I'd want to use 700c (tubulars if you can afford it and value the expenditure).

I wouldn't decal it as Geoffrey Butler unless you are 100% certain of its pedigree.
According to Randy and others in a thread Randy's post looking for info confirmed fairly certainly that it is a Geoffery Butler.

H Lloyd does have the decals


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Old 09-05-19, 06:57 AM
  #27  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
That's an interesting question. The LBS has been sitting on a partial group for the last five years, and they started hinting (again) that I should buy it. I went on eBay and looked at completed listings...and I've never seen such a huge variation on pricing for both groups and individual bits.

You can get it as expensive or cheaply as you want it, if you're willing to wait.

-Kurt
So How much is that group your LBS has?
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Old 09-05-19, 10:23 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by bwilli88 View Post
So How much is that group your LBS has?
I did ask if you could forward (ie. an image) the frame number. I know Geoffrey Butler cycles, used to walk/cycle past their shop on my way to school back in the day. They did not build frames (in a sense there's no such thing as a genuine Geoffrey Butler): they were bought in from numerous builders - I am just trying to provide some background knowledge !!!

I also have two.

John.
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Old 09-05-19, 10:34 AM
  #29  
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Ah, memories.

I got my hands on a new, unpainted Geoffrey Butler frame from the factory in 1974. Very similar to the photo, except the fork had a sloping crown.

It was my first "serious" build. Full Campy Record (except the brakes, which were Shimano). Cinelli bars and stem. Record small flange hubs, Fiamme Yellow Label rims, silk tubulars, Brooks Professional saddle.

I cherished that bike.
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Old 09-05-19, 10:45 AM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
Ah, memories.

I got my hands on a new, unpainted Geoffrey Butler frame from the factory in 1974. Very similar to the photo, except the fork had a sloping crown.

It was my first "serious" build. Full Campy Record (except the brakes, which were Shimano). Cinelli bars and stem. Record small flange hubs, Fiamme Yellow Label rims, silk tubulars, Brooks Professional saddle.

I cherished that bike.
You may have cherished it but I'd check your memory: Geoffrey Butler did not have a factory ! It was one shop - perhaps you recall the address - do folk on this forum never read previous posts ?

John.
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Old 09-05-19, 10:54 AM
  #31  
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Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
You may have cherished it but I'd check your memory: Geoffrey Butler did not have a factory ! It was one shop - perhaps you recall the address.
Never been to the Geoffrey Butler shop, the frame in question came through the back door of my dad's shop in Palo Alto.

Well, the frame was from a factory, and it was unpainted. It still had the brazing flux around the lugs, which I had to clean up before painting. An unnamed person from the UK brought it as carry on luggage and delivered it in person to my dad.
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Old 09-05-19, 11:15 AM
  #32  
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Deleted.

Little point trying to help on this thread.

John.

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Old 09-05-19, 11:17 AM
  #33  
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I would love to post the serial number but it is not that easy. I live for the most part in Cambodia and only visit the States 3 months of every 24. I will not see that bike until April at the earliest unless something drastic happens. You might search through the previous thread that Randy had posted when he was looking for information on the bike. The link to that thread is in post #26 .

I just went to the above mentioned thread and Randy had posted an image of the nds drop out with the serial number, 70227

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Old 09-05-19, 11:19 AM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
given this is correct why then refer to it as a Geoffrey Butler (given my post about GB) ?
Because it was a Geoffrey Butler frame.

A frame commissioned by Geoffrey Butler, to Geoffrey Butler specifications, marked with a Geoffrey Butler serial number, is a Geoffrey Butler frame.
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Old 09-05-19, 05:49 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
Deleted.

Little point trying to help on this thread.

John.
I eventually did find the serial number on one of Randy's old threads about this bike. I did appreciate your input about Butler's and did want to copy your images.
Now how would you build my frame as the original post and question?
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Old 09-05-19, 07:11 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by bwilli88 View Post
So How much is that group your LBS has?
It's not a complete group, and I did ask today. I got a half-joke reply of $500, followed by "Yea, that's too much, right?"

It's not a bad selection though, and the worst part about it were the hoods, IIRC. I think the hubs are there, but the seatpost isn't - something like that.

I'd offer to FaceTime you with the shop tomorrow, but that might not work...it'll be 3 in the morning where you are

-Kurt
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Old 09-05-19, 09:16 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by cudak888 View Post
It'll be 3 in the morning where you are

-Kurt
I do not function well at 3am other than to get up to pee.
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Old 09-05-19, 09:27 PM
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Originally Posted by bwilli88 View Post
I do not function well at 3am other than to get up to pee.
I'll take it a step further: I do not function at 3am. Period

-Kurt
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Old 09-05-19, 09:30 PM
  #39  
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So far I have gotten a few suggestions for; 3 for a Nuovo Record, as original, 2 for a Sante group build, 3 for a Huret Jubilee build (I like that one though pricey), 1 or 2 build it modern along with a Mavic and a Suntour suggestion.

So these are a few of my thought running around my upper brain housing unit; Take the Shimano Arabesque 600/Diacomp setup I have from my 78 SuperCourse or the Shimano 105 series 5500 3x9 from my Zunow.

I have been rolling a Huret Jubilee shifter/RD/FD with Mavic Racers build around in my head.

Thinking also of my latest build here in Cambodia is a 2x10 Flat bar Ultegra/Dura-Ace build (Ultegra for the RD, Flat bar rear shifter, Brakes and flat bar levers with Dura-Ace for the DT front shifter running a Dura-Ace FD.

Full Suntour Superbe Pro would be sweet.
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Old 09-05-19, 10:03 PM
  #40  
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Richard Hammond, aka Captain America rode a GB. Was impressed that after he crunched the fork, a matching replacement was sent. The fork met its end when the all aluminum Hi-E skewer let go in a turn.
Ouch!
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Old 09-05-19, 10:09 PM
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Originally Posted by bwilli88 View Post
So far I have gotten a few suggestions for; 3 for a Nuovo Record, as original, 2 for a Sante group build, 3 for a Huret Jubilee build (I like that one though pricey), 1 or 2 build it modern along with a Mavic and a Suntour suggestion.

So these are a few of my thought running around my upper brain housing unit; Take the Shimano Arabesque 600/Diacomp setup I have from my 78 SuperCourse or the Shimano 105 series 5500 3x9 from my Zunow.

I have been rolling a Huret Jubilee shifter/RD/FD with Mavic Racers build around in my head.

Thinking also of my latest build here in Cambodia is a 2x10 Flat bar Ultegra/Dura-Ace build (Ultegra RD, Flat bar rear shifter, Brakes and flat bar levers with a Dura-Ace DT front shifter running a Dura-Ace FD.

Full Suntour Superbe Pro would be sweet.
I'd stay away from the centerpulls, if only because the rear cable will always hang a bit too high or to the side with one of those center-mount, binder bolt cable stops.

The Arabesque 600 crankset and Jubilee RD would complement this frame exceedingly well. I'm not convinced you'd be happy with the Jubilee FD performance.

I'm coming up blank on the brakes though. Early Dura-Ace would be neat and perform well.

-Kurt
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Old 09-06-19, 10:06 AM
  #42  
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Originally Posted by bwilli88 View Post
I would love to post the serial number but it is not that easy. I live for the most part in Cambodia and only visit the States 3 months of every 24. I will not see that bike until April at the earliest unless something drastic happens. You might search through the previous thread that Randy had posted when he was looking for information on the bike. The link to that thread is in post #26 .

I just went to the above mentioned thread and Randy had posted an image of the nds drop out with the serial number, 70227
Seeing the frame number, and how it appears and the style of stamp, confirms to me what workshop built this frameset (if I could see the frame I could tell you the name of the man who built it). Geoffrey Butler Cycles in this period had three suppliers of frames - two were what you might call Hall of Famers, the third was a respected builder but not in the same league as the two Hall of Famers.

So to be clear this stamp is not a Geoffrey Butler Cycles stamp but that of the builder. In the later years of steel Geoffrey Butler Cycles sourced frames from less desirable builders (e.g Nigel Dean frames built in the Falcon factory): not bad frames, but from those who built solely for the trade.

In terms of build, the desirable English build would be, without doubt, Nuovo Record. However, a TA Chainset, Weinmann brakeset, NR transmission...would be an acceptable and realistic - in period - compromise.

John.

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Old 09-06-19, 10:20 AM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
Seeing the frame number, and how it appears and the style of stamp, confirms to me what workshop built this frameset (if I could see the frame I could tell you the name of the man who built it). Geoffrey Butler Cycles in this period had three suppliers of frames - two were what you might call Hall of Famers, the third was a respected builder but not in the same league as the two Hall of Famers.

So to be clear this stamp is not a Geoffrey Butler Cycles stamp but that of the builder. In the later years of steel Geoffrey Butler Cycles sourced frames from less desirable builders (e.g Nigel Dean frames built in the Falcon factory): not bad frames, but from those who built solely for the trade.

In terms of build, the desirable English build would be, without doubt, Nuovo Record. However, a TA Chainset, Weinmann brakeset, NR transmission...would be an acceptable and realistic - in period - compromise.

John.
From the thread mentioned in post #26 , Randy stated..."But I have been digging and, to the best of my ability determined that the bicycle is a Geoffery Butler, probably of late sixties vintage and most likely built by Cliff Shrubb. Now that is something but something yet to be proven, however; Cliff did, indeed, as one forum member mentioned, build bicycles for Geoffrey Butler and he (Cliff) would have been doing so in the late sixties. Cliff was also noted for his use of the seat lug that is featured on my bicycle..."


Would that be close to matching what your information is?
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Old 09-06-19, 10:38 AM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by bwilli88 View Post
From the thread mentioned in post #26 , Randy stated..."But I have been digging and, to the best of my ability determined that the bicycle is a Geoffery Butler, probably of late sixties vintage and most likely built by Cliff Shrubb. Now that is something but something yet to be proven, however; Cliff did, indeed, as one forum member mentioned, build bicycles for Geoffrey Butler and he (Cliff) would have been doing so in the late sixties. Cliff was also noted for his use of the seat lug that is featured on my bicycle..."

Would that be close to matching what your information is?
Firstly and not wishing to be churlish my information is first hand - being there and knowing the shops and builders*. And no your frame is not a Shrubb. Cliff, whom I knew, did not build for Geoffrey Butler Cycles until the late 1970s and the stamp style is not his (or the shops).

*I have also been a member of the V-CC for over 30 years, I was born in Croydon and as previously mentioned walked, rode past or went in Geoffrey Butler Cycles on my way to school in the period in question.

John.

N.B went in...usually on the way home, the shop was not open on my way to school !
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Old 09-06-19, 10:52 AM
  #45  
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The important question is how do YOU want to build it? The peanut gallery will all have their own opinions...but it's YOUR frame. When it's a historic frame, you get into this "need expert opinion on how to restore", but this would have been set up to owner preference, and likely modified many times over the years. You could build this period specific, modern, a mix...it depends on what you want the bike to be and how you want to use it.

Personally...I think Sante is hideous on almost any build, and would be pretty awful here...but that's one guy's opinion, and it's not my bike.
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Old 09-06-19, 12:17 PM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by terrymorse View Post
Ah, memories.

I got my hands on a new, unpainted Geoffrey Butler frame from the factory in 1974. Very similar to the photo, except the fork had a sloping crown.

It was my first "serious" build. Full Campy Record (except the brakes, which were Shimano). Cinelli bars and stem. Record small flange hubs, Fiamme Yellow Label rims, silk tubulars, Brooks Professional saddle.

I cherished that bike.
Sooo,... where is it now???

I had a pair of yellow (gold) labels but I was too heavy for them when riding the atrocious streets of NYC.

Ditto for tubular tires of any type - the streets were too dirty and filled with glass shards. I was constantly repairing flats and they "broke the back" of my limited budget.
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Old 09-06-19, 12:22 PM
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Originally Posted by Wileyone View Post
That's why I said Nuovo Record...
Why, yes... Yes, you did and I quoted you, too.
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Old 09-06-19, 12:25 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by randyjawa View Post
This bike is full of awesomeness!

I don't like the wiring or the tape but it is your bike and it is TOTALLY WICKED!
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Old 09-06-19, 12:29 PM
  #49  
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Originally Posted by hobbs1951 View Post
Deleted.

Little point trying to help on this thread.

John.
John, could you re-post the text. Your post above had good info in it. I can't imagine what else you posted.

If GB did not make the frame, I wonder who did? Is there any way to know?
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Old 09-06-19, 04:17 PM
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This frame, belonging to another forum member, still wears the GB art. The frames are identical...
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