Go Back  Bike Forums > Bike Forums > Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational)
Reload this Page >

(Wheel Choice) bikepacking on gravel bikes

Notices
Cyclocross and Gravelbiking (Recreational) This has to be the most physically intense sport ever invented. It's high speed bicycle racing on a short off road course or riding the off pavement rides on gravel like :The Dirty Kanza". We also have a dedicated Racing forum for the Cyclocross Hard Core Racers.

(Wheel Choice) bikepacking on gravel bikes

Old 09-12-19, 09:19 PM
  #1  
Metieval
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Metieval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,150

Bikes: Road bike, Hybrid, Gravel, Drop bar SS, hard tail MTB

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 51 Posts
(Wheel Choice) bikepacking on gravel bikes

So most everyone talks about 32 spoke or 36 spoke wheels for touring. but that is a different breed of riders where they take the house with them

My question is how much wheel is needed for bikepacking or light touring on gravel? I (for whatever reason) had in my head that 28 was enough.

I am curious to what people think because Mavic Allroad pro disc is one set of a few choices. they pretty much check off a lot of boxes except for being low spoke count. However so were my Ksyrium elites 2005 era and they have been bullet proof.

then again 180 lb rider, 21ish lb bike, around 35 lb load
__________________
Dawes SST AL, Cannondale Synapse Alloy 105, Giant Talon 29er, Trek Crossrip Elite,
Metieval is offline  
Old 09-12-19, 11:29 PM
  #2  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,869

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo, '18 Diamondback Syncr

Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3273 Post(s)
Liked 333 Times in 229 Posts
While the mavic wheels may work perfectly for years and thousands of miles, what would the benefit be of getting them vs a more standardized build?

$1200 for a low spoke wheelset that's light but not flyweight, aluminum rims, straight pull proprietary spokes...what's the upside here?

A handbuilt 32h wheelset with double butted bend spokes, quality hubs, and quality rims will cost $420-650 depending on what you choose and will be at least just as reliable. The only downside compared to the mavics is itll weigh 1800g..

I would choose a wheelset that I trusted would carry me safely for days in the middle of nowhere and could be readily repaired if needed.


What bike are these for?
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 07:16 AM
  #3  
Metieval
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Metieval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,150

Bikes: Road bike, Hybrid, Gravel, Drop bar SS, hard tail MTB

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 51 Posts
I have seen the Allroad Pro for as low as $824 ($934 right now or $900 from Excel) not the $1200 msrp. So in complete fairness and in honesty. Let us talk real world numbers when comparing prices. There is a reason I didn't go with price in the OP though.
example..... I have a 2 pound down sleeping bag, so why would I pay $400 for a 15 ounce bag? pack size and weight! same reason I'd throw out $400 for a new tent from Agnes. shorter tent poles when packed. Money isn't the argument. I am well aware of your hesitation to spend $30 on compressionless brake cable housing though. Please don't bring that money argument to this topic. If I have to go a month with out steak and eat ground chuck instead so I can buy my Mavics, then I'll buy my Mavics. (disclaimer: I eat ground chuck regularly instead of steak anyways)


Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post

I would choose a wheelset that I trusted would carry me safely for days in the middle of nowhere and could be readily repaired if needed.


What bike are these for?
Mavic allroad pro is on the list because they check off the "trust" box. As for "readily repaired", Well I can haul a spoke or two just like a rider can haul one or two of your spoke on a Salsa Marrakesh frame chain stay.

I am, in part, basing my 'Mavic trust' on my experience with 10,000+ miles on 2005 era Mavic Elites. Also based on cheaper Aksium one disc wheelset. Even though those Aksium were brutally flexy and heavy.


My other 2 wheelset choices involve asymmetrical straightpull builds, for stronger stiffer wheels. One is $1,600 built by one hell of a wheel builder (if you want to compare money), and the other (light bicycle) is probably 4-5 weeks out. The weather is changing... It's time to go. I not waiting on Lightbicycle.

and 1610 gram wheels vs stock 2100 gram wheels is a huge difference in rotating mass. I just took my ss to the gun show group ride a couple weeks ago with its 2200 gram wheels. It still hurts.

Oh and IW matters the allroads are 22mm, and the allroads are solid bed, (lightbicycle also offers solid rim beds) I am so done with that tape stuff. HUGE Upside.

Edit, btw the $934 price tag gives me $46 in VIP credit, so it actually puts me $12 ahead of the Excel buy.
__________________
Dawes SST AL, Cannondale Synapse Alloy 105, Giant Talon 29er, Trek Crossrip Elite,

Last edited by Metieval; 09-13-19 at 07:32 AM.
Metieval is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 07:25 AM
  #4  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,869

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo, '18 Diamondback Syncr

Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3273 Post(s)
Liked 333 Times in 229 Posts
Wow.
Fair enough- sounds like you have done all the research and they fit what you want.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 07:29 AM
  #5  
Metieval
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Metieval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,150

Bikes: Road bike, Hybrid, Gravel, Drop bar SS, hard tail MTB

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 51 Posts
the question is the Allroads are 20/24 spoke.

So do I skip them, and go with an alternate choice for a bicycle carrying a multiday load.

All be it rider + bike + load is still 250 lb or less. which is still under the 264.555 lb mavic weight limit.
__________________
Dawes SST AL, Cannondale Synapse Alloy 105, Giant Talon 29er, Trek Crossrip Elite,
Metieval is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 08:30 AM
  #6  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,498
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1371 Post(s)
Liked 241 Times in 147 Posts
35 pound load these days is considered taking the house with you. And that is static not dynamic weight, which has more impact.

The argument against low spoke count is not just stand alone weight of wheelset. It's what happens "if" you break a spoke on the road. This "what if" only gets more so when riding gravel/off road surfaces with a static load where the jarring is greater and more frequent.

On a day ride, "if" you break a spoke you will limp to the end or call for a ride. On a multi day (or week) tour, your plans may need to be altered to the point of cancellation. Break a spoke on a 36H and you may or may not get a wobble that you can compensate for by re truing, on a 20H your wheel has a far higher chance of going out of true and not being able to be adjusted. Some may argue they'll just replace the spoke but that requires more tools than lightweight touring (especially drive side rear) suggests. The weight savings of spokes is lost to carrying those same replacement spokes and additional tools for truing or replacing. A more robust rim predictably needs fewer spokes and tools.

This discussion is very common in the touring section and it all comes down to how much risk you are willing to accept for the low spoke count vs what it will offer you. Once you consider the weight of gear, unless you dive full into ultra light, the savings of several spokes worth of weight is hard to justify.

FWIW, when the newer Trek 1120 first came out it had 28H rims and there were a lot of complaints about spokes breaking. This was talked about quite a bit on the touring forum at the time as a member had just purchased the bike (well.. his brother did but that's another story).

The choice is yours. Just consider what your recourse will be if you break a spoke. If the trips planned won't be impacted there is no reason not to experiment. If there will be an impact, there's no reason not to play it a little safer with spokes. Make up the difference with a carbon seat post.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-13-19 at 08:37 AM.
Happy Feet is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 08:37 AM
  #7  
Spoonrobot 
Senior Member
 
Spoonrobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,344
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Liked 87 Times in 62 Posts
I'd never consider less than 32/32 for a bikepacking wheelset and wouldn't consider Mavic for anything. Proprietary or unusual parts are a non-starter for me.

However, with modern spokes and rims, 24/20 is probably ok for what you want to do. Most likely not field repairable and a toss-up if a broken spoke is a ride-ender where you get to carry the bike since the wheel is jammed.

That sounds overly negative but really you'll probably be fine. Get the wheels, worst case you get some good experience out of it.
Spoonrobot is online now  
Old 09-13-19, 09:04 AM
  #8  
mstateglfr 
Sunshine
 
mstateglfr's Avatar
 
Join Date: Aug 2014
Location: Des Moines, IA
Posts: 8,869

Bikes: '18 class built steel roadbike, '19 Fairlight Secan, '87 Schwinn Prelude, Black Mountain Cycles Monstercross V4, '89 Novara Trionfo, '18 Diamondback Syncr

Mentioned: 79 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 3273 Post(s)
Liked 333 Times in 229 Posts
How is a spoke changed on a solid rim? Thats something for me to look into- interesting.
mstateglfr is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 09:12 AM
  #9  
Metieval
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Metieval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,150

Bikes: Road bike, Hybrid, Gravel, Drop bar SS, hard tail MTB

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post

FWIW, when the newer Trek 1120 first came out it had 28H rims and there were a lot of complaints about spokes breaking.
Why do spokes break?

If they break because there was only 28 of them, then why do spokes break on 32 or 36 wheels?

I totally understand that you can limp a 36h wheel along that is missing a spoke and you can't limp a 28h wheel along with 27 spokes.

However you have lost 100% validation with me, when the argument turns into you'll break spokes because it is 28h.
__________________
Dawes SST AL, Cannondale Synapse Alloy 105, Giant Talon 29er, Trek Crossrip Elite,
Metieval is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 09:13 AM
  #10  
Marcus_Ti 
Frozen Solid.
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 4,868

Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2035 Post(s)
Liked 101 Times in 72 Posts
Get wheels you can get spare parts for. Buying boutique wheels screws yourself later with parts. Mavic in particular has been known for having CS best described as "what is customer service"?

Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
How is a spoke changed on a solid rim? Thats something for me to look into- interesting.
How It's Made did a video at the Campagnolo/Fulcrum wheel factory on bicycle wheels:

Marcus_Ti is online now  
Old 09-13-19, 09:22 AM
  #11  
Metieval
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Metieval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,150

Bikes: Road bike, Hybrid, Gravel, Drop bar SS, hard tail MTB

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by mstateglfr View Post
How is a spoke changed on a solid rim? Thats something for me to look into- interesting.
depends on the wheel. Even my 2005 era Mavic elites have a solid rim bed.

With Mavic the nipple is threaded into the Rim from the inner side of the hoop.

With Lightbicycle carbon and other carbon solid rim bed wheels. a magnet and string is used to pull the nipple through the wheel to the nipple hole.
__________________
Dawes SST AL, Cannondale Synapse Alloy 105, Giant Talon 29er, Trek Crossrip Elite,

Last edited by Metieval; 09-13-19 at 09:26 AM.
Metieval is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 09:31 AM
  #12  
Spoonrobot 
Senior Member
 
Spoonrobot's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2006
Posts: 3,344
Mentioned: 59 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1096 Post(s)
Liked 87 Times in 62 Posts
Originally Posted by Metieval View Post
Why do spokes break?

If they break because there was only 28 of them, then why do spokes break on 32 or 36 wheels?

I totally understand that you can limp a 36h wheel along that is missing a spoke and you can't limp a 28h wheel along with 27 spokes.

However you have lost 100% validation with me, when the argument turns into you'll break spokes because it is 28h.
They break due to inclusions/artefacts and other maladies that occur during production of both the steel used to create the wire and the wire itself. Fewer spokes means more stress on each spoke which can cause failures that would not otherwise occur, in the sense of occurring at all or occurring within a shortened time frame. All things considered, straight pull spokes are probably more reliable than j-bends but lower counts are less reliable than higher counts.
Spoonrobot is online now  
Old 09-13-19, 09:32 AM
  #13  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,498
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1371 Post(s)
Liked 241 Times in 147 Posts
Originally Posted by Metieval View Post
Why do spokes break?

If they break because there was only 28 of them, then why do spokes break on 32 or 36 wheels?

I totally understand that you can limp a 36h wheel along that is missing a spoke and you can't limp a 28h wheel along with 27 spokes.

However you have lost 100% validation with me, when the argument turns into you'll break spokes because it is 28h.
Uhh... ok.

As it seems all you want is confirmation I was writing more for anyone else that might be reading along and wondering about some points to consider in wheel choices for touring. You carry on wondering how spokes on low count rims "break".

Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-13-19 at 09:35 AM.
Happy Feet is offline  
Likes For Happy Feet:
Old 09-13-19, 09:45 AM
  #14  
TimothyH
- Soli Deo Gloria -
 
Join Date: Aug 2015
Location: Northwest Georgia
Posts: 14,784

Bikes: 2018 Rodriguez Custom Fixed Gear, 2017 Niner RLT 9 RDO, 2015 Bianchi Pista, 2002 Fuji Robaix

Mentioned: 233 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 6822 Post(s)
Liked 651 Times in 409 Posts
I plan to ride 28 spoke two-cross wheels on a five day bikepacking trip next week - God willing and if I don't hurt myself in the next three days.

Spokes are Sapim Laser with brass nipples.

Gear weight will likely be 30 lb to start, less as I eat my way through the trip. I currently weigh 178 lb.

The route is probably 50% paved, 40% gravel and 10% singletrack/horse trails, 220 miles and 23,000 ft elevation. It isn't much distance for five days but this is my first trip of this length and includes terrain which will surely require pushing the bike. I'm also new to camping so want to leave lots of time for setup, teardown and practicing technique.

The wheels have been used for one night trips and have been ridden in anger on some pretty good gnar (by gravel bike standards) so drama is not expected. Richard at ProWheelBuilder.com built the wheels and serviced them recently. I have great faith that they are well put together.

That said, if the wheels break, they break, and stronger wheels will be built. If they hold up then life is good. Either way it will be epic and I'll report back here when done.



-Tim-

Last edited by TimothyH; 09-13-19 at 09:52 AM.
TimothyH is offline  
Likes For TimothyH:
Old 09-13-19, 09:48 AM
  #15  
Metieval
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Metieval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,150

Bikes: Road bike, Hybrid, Gravel, Drop bar SS, hard tail MTB

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Uhh... ok.

As it seems all you want is confirmation I was writing more for anyone else that might be reading along and wondering about some points to consider in wheel choices for touring. You carry on wondering how spokes on low count rims "break". Try google.
maybe you should stay in the touring forum? if all you do is regurgitate touring info.

I know why spokes break. It wasn't a question of me seeking knowledge, it was a question for you to validate your argument.

I probably shouldn't even be seeking bikepacking info on BF.

The only confirmation I seek is, Do I go with the allroads, or do I just go ahead and get one of the other 28 spoke wheelsets.

at this point I might just do the allroads to put a stop to the Reguritation of it can't be done.

Do you guys Happy feet /Marcus/mstateglfr want to make a friendly BF wager?

I'll do a 1200 mile loaded ride on the 20/24 spoke allroads. If I break a spoke I'll take a 3 month leave of silence on BF. If I don't break a spoke, then you 3 take a leave of silence from BF. or at least from the gravel section.

We will put our keyboards up for collateral to back our opinions.
__________________
Dawes SST AL, Cannondale Synapse Alloy 105, Giant Talon 29er, Trek Crossrip Elite,
Metieval is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 09:50 AM
  #16  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,498
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1371 Post(s)
Liked 241 Times in 147 Posts
No thanks. Not everything about cycling has to be an argument. You will probably be fine. Enjoy your tours.

From a thread in 2017 (I said 1120 but it was the 920):

The weight limit is most likely related to the wheels. I had special-ordered a Trek 920 just ahead of a cross-country tour last summer. I hadn't noticed that the bike was spec'd with only 28H wheels until I went to pick it up.

Before taking delivery, my dealer contacted Trek, and confirmed that for my current weight (pushing 300) and intended usage ("Condition 2") that the bike would be fine, with the possible exception of the wheels. I was offered a $150 credit for the wheels, and we tried to get a set of wheels with a higher spoke count (initially 40H, but after a ton of research, that was a very expensive option, and that a 36H wheel with strong rims would be sufficient).

In the end, due to timing issues, I ended up starting the ride on my old Gary Fisher MTB (32H rear-wheel that was upgraded to 36H after broken spokes) and finishing on my Cannondale (very old 36H single-wall rear wheel, also replaced with newer, stronger 36H wheel after breaking multiple spokes)...


I really liked the look of the Trek 920, but ultimately I went with a Specialized AWOL for a number of reasons. The basic concept of the 920 seems to me to be valid, but I disliked a lot of the stock features of the bike (for a touring bike, that is), including the gearing (not low or high enough), the brakes (complicated for maintaining while touring) and the wheels (through axles are still hard to find/replace where I live and I am a bigger guy, so 28 spoke wheels were never going to be acceptable for me)...

A 140 lb rider is probably fine on 28h wheels, but the weight savings of 16 spokes and nipples is insignificant in most loaded tourists' views, while the additional 29% spokes sounds like a real good idea given that wheels are one of the biggest problem areas on touring bikes. If you plan on leaving the pavement, then steel frame and more spokes is a good idea...last summer I met two women riding across Canada and were loaded with about 40lbs or so. The one with the 920 had all her load on the backat first and had numerous spoke breakages--not much of a surprise...



Just some of many comments at the time. No desire to debate

Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-13-19 at 09:59 AM.
Happy Feet is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 09:53 AM
  #17  
Metieval
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Metieval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,150

Bikes: Road bike, Hybrid, Gravel, Drop bar SS, hard tail MTB

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
I plan to ride 28 spoke two-cross wheels on a five day bikepacking trip next week - God willing and if I don't hurt myself in the next three days.

Spokes are Sapim Laser with brass nipples.

Gear weight will likely be 30 lb to start, less as I eat my way through the trip. I currently weigh 178 lb.

The route is probably 50% paved, 40% gravel and 10% singletrack/horse trails, 220 miles and 23,000 ft elevation. It isn't much distance for five days but this is my first trip of this length and includes terrain which will surely require pushing the bike. I'm also new to camping so want to leave lots of time for setup, teardown and practicing technique.

I've done one night trips with this setup and have ridden them on in anger on some pretty good gnar (by gravel bike standards) so drama is not expected. That said, if the wheels break, they break, and I'll have a set of stronger wheels built. If they hold up then life is good. Either way, I'll report back here.



-Tim-
yeah I screwed up, I should have ordered the Lightbicycle wheels, a long time ago. I didn't think I'd have this riding window that I have now. and at the time I didn't know if I wanted 15 or 12 x 100. the difference being if I need 15 then I'd buy 6 bolt. for 12 I'll buy center lock.

and I really should have ordered them when they had more Asymmetrical options.
__________________
Dawes SST AL, Cannondale Synapse Alloy 105, Giant Talon 29er, Trek Crossrip Elite,
Metieval is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 10:03 AM
  #18  
Metieval
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Metieval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,150

Bikes: Road bike, Hybrid, Gravel, Drop bar SS, hard tail MTB

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
No thanks. Not everything about cycling has to be an argument.
so how much are you willing to stake behind your typed claims of knowledge?
__________________
Dawes SST AL, Cannondale Synapse Alloy 105, Giant Talon 29er, Trek Crossrip Elite,
Metieval is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 10:16 AM
  #19  
jlaw
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Mar 2018
Posts: 746

Bikes: 2015 Spec. AWOL Elite, 2007 Spec. Roubaix Elite, 2003 Spec. Big Hit 2, 1998 VooDoo Zobop, 1985 Trek 410, 1984 Trek 620 1985 Trek 620

Mentioned: 12 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 277 Post(s)
Likes: 0
Liked 61 Times in 41 Posts
Originally Posted by Metieval View Post

My question is how much wheel is needed for bikepacking or light touring on gravel? I (for whatever reason) had in my head that 28 was enough.
What size tires will you be using? A larger tire at lower pressure would likely provide extra shock protection for the entire wheel, including the spokes.

Also, a well-built wheel with properly-tensioned spokes is good protection. Spokes can break because the spoke tension is too high - but a more likely scenario IMO is that the spoke is tensioned too low and may even reach a state of compression as the wheel rotates thereby fatiguing the spoke to the point of failure.

I wouldn't shy away from properly-built 28 spoke wheels as long as I could repair them myself on the road.
jlaw is offline  
Likes For jlaw:
Old 09-13-19, 10:32 AM
  #20  
Marcus_Ti 
Frozen Solid.
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 4,868

Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2035 Post(s)
Liked 101 Times in 72 Posts
Originally Posted by Metieval View Post
Why do spokes break?

If they break because there was only 28 of them, then why do spokes break on 32 or 36 wheels?

I totally understand that you can limp a 36h wheel along that is missing a spoke and you can't limp a 28h wheel along with 27 spokes.

However you have lost 100% validation with me, when the argument turns into you'll break spokes because it is 28h.
Spokes break due to metal fatigue, generally. Which happens, generally, because there are not enough spokes to maintain tension for the given load--the spokes go slack and flex and flex and flex like a bending paperclip. POP. Rims break,generally, because of either bad QC of the rim--or because the builder over-tensioned the spokes--result is cracking at eyelets and spokes pulling through.

How few spokes you can get away with, depends on the load and also the rim and how it is built. Also, as ever, the rear always bears more load than the front. I've done pannier touring with my gravel rig with a 28h/32h build with SL25 alloy rims. But I wasn't hauling months worth of gear--enough for a week. My bick with racks and kitted to ride is about 35# add 180-190# of rider, and then 50-60# of pannier bags and stuff in them (waterproof panniers aren't light)....and it starts getting close.

I also have my CX46 carbon rims in 28/28...the build is rated to 310# by the builder, but I tend to keep those for the go quicker rides sans racks/bags.

When in doubt--overbuilding is better. People with steel touring rigs and racks and 80# of stuff in them can cause 32h and 36H wheels to metal fatigue.


For this purpose...I would NOT use boutique wheels, Mavic or no. I'd talk to a wheel builder like November Dave or Richard at ProWheelbuilder about your needs.

Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
I plan to ride 28 spoke two-cross wheels on a five day bikepacking trip next week - God willing and if I don't hurt myself in the next three days.

Spokes are Sapim Laser with brass nipples.

Gear weight will likely be 30 lb to start, less as I eat my way through the trip. I currently weigh 178 lb.

The route is probably 50% paved, 40% gravel and 10% singletrack/horse trails, 220 miles and 23,000 ft elevation. It isn't much distance for five days but this is my first trip of this length and includes terrain which will surely require pushing the bike. I'm also new to camping so want to leave lots of time for setup, teardown and practicing technique.

The wheels have been used for one night trips and have been ridden in anger on some pretty good gnar (by gravel bike standards) so drama is not expected. Richard at ProWheelBuilder.com built the wheels and serviced them recently. I have great faith that they are well put together.

That said, if the wheels break, they break, and stronger wheels will be built. If they hold up then life is good. Either way it will be epic and I'll report back here when done.



-Tim-
This calls for a ride report with pics when done.
Marcus_Ti is online now  
Old 09-13-19, 10:36 AM
  #21  
Metieval
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Metieval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,150

Bikes: Road bike, Hybrid, Gravel, Drop bar SS, hard tail MTB

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by jlaw View Post
What size tires will you be using? A larger tire at lower pressure would likely provide extra shock protection for the entire wheel, including the spokes.

Also, a well-built wheel with properly-tensioned spokes is good protection. Spokes can break because the spoke tension is too high - but a more likely scenario IMO is that the spoke is tensioned too low and may even reach a state of compression as the wheel rotates thereby fatiguing the spoke to the point of failure.

I wouldn't shy away from properly-built 28 spoke wheels as long as I could repair them myself on the road.
700x38 slick GK or Teravail Rampart. Depends on how much gravel I want to hit across IN/ IL.

It might just become a fast ride, which is less gravel which leads me to the Slicks. 1200 miles max unless I cut it short. so 800 ish on the short side. Which if it becomes a fast ride that means the Tent stays home and it just becomes a bivy/hammock ride. Midwest ride. so plenty of water/food available. I am leaving it open ended

had a time window available. So I thought why not ride to the Katy trail, but ride to it also.

my number 1wheel choice would be Cantu 28 spoke asymmetrical straight pull spoke wheels (rebel or rova). however the Allroads are 1/2 that price and have the solid rim bed.

with cantu the balance scale tip towards the hooked rebel. as that allows for running a 700x35 bon Jon in future. I don;t think I want to run any compass tire on hookless wheels.

the only hang up with the allroads is being 20/24
__________________
Dawes SST AL, Cannondale Synapse Alloy 105, Giant Talon 29er, Trek Crossrip Elite,
Metieval is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 10:42 AM
  #22  
Marcus_Ti 
Frozen Solid.
 
Marcus_Ti's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2014
Location: Lincoln, Nebraska
Posts: 4,868

Bikes: Roadie: Seven Axiom Race Ti w/Chorus 11s. CX/Adventure: Carver Gravel Grinder w/ Di2

Mentioned: 29 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 2035 Post(s)
Liked 101 Times in 72 Posts
Originally Posted by Metieval View Post
700x38 slick GK or Teravail Rampart. Depends on how much gravel I want to hit across IN/ IL.

It might just become a fast ride, which is less gravel which leads me to the Slicks. 1200 miles max unless I cut it short. so 800 ish on the short side. Which if it becomes a fast ride that means the Tent stays home and it just becomes a bivy/hammock ride. Midwest ride. so plenty of water/food available. I am leaving it open ended

had a time window available. So I thought why not ride to the Katy trail, but ride to it also.

my number 1wheel choice would be Cantu 28 spoke asymmetrical straight pull spoke wheels (rebel or rova). however the Allroads are 1/2 that price and have the solid rim bed.

with cantu the balance scale tip towards the hooked rebel. as that allows for running a 700x35 bon Jon in future. I don;t think I want to run any compass tire on hookless wheels.

the only hang up with the allroads is being 20/24
FYI-Call Missouri State Parks and ask about the conditions (800-334-6946). This year with all the flooding and high water levels, the Mo state parks have gotten hammered with flooding.

https://mostateparks.com/advisory/79...ail-state-park

One of mi amigos organizes a ride out of Big Lake State Park...Well Big Lake and Rulo and that entire river valley have been flooded since March and are still flooded. Mo St Parks offered us full refunds on our camp reservations in March as they suspected (correctly) that the entire area would be a disaster area into 2020.
Marcus_Ti is online now  
Old 09-13-19, 11:10 AM
  #23  
Metieval
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Metieval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,150

Bikes: Road bike, Hybrid, Gravel, Drop bar SS, hard tail MTB

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by Marcus_Ti View Post
FYI-Call Missouri State Parks and ask about the conditions (800-334-6946). This year with all the flooding and high water levels, the Mo state parks have gotten hammered with flooding.

https://mostateparks.com/advisory/79...ail-state-park

One of mi amigos organizes a ride out of Big Lake State Park...Well Big Lake and Rulo and that entire river valley have been flooded since March and are still flooded. Mo St Parks offered us full refunds on our camp reservations in March as they suspected (correctly) that the entire area would be a disaster area into 2020.
well maybe I won't end up there. thank you, regardless I have about 3 week window. so I'll be spending 3 weeks on the saddle.
__________________
Dawes SST AL, Cannondale Synapse Alloy 105, Giant Talon 29er, Trek Crossrip Elite,
Metieval is offline  
Old 09-13-19, 12:24 PM
  #24  
Happy Feet
Senior Member
 
Happy Feet's Avatar
 
Join Date: Sep 2015
Posts: 3,498
Mentioned: 22 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 1371 Post(s)
Liked 241 Times in 147 Posts
Originally Posted by Metieval View Post
so how much are you willing to stake behind your typed claims of knowledge?
Pretty sure gambling is not allowed on BF but...

Every time I go on a tour I suppose I am staking the successful conclusion of it on my knowledge, which has grown with experience. One day, when you do your own tour, you may find the same. A valuable use of BF as a resource is to ask questions as you did and gain perspective based on what other people who have toured have learned beforehand. No one says you have to follow that advice though.

When I work with people who are having a problem making decisions I sometimes tell them to take a piece of paper and draw a line down the center. On one side is the Pro's, on the other, the Cons. This helps to visualize the benefits involved. In this case:

Higher spoke count

Pros: strength, reliability, less tools needed as a result
Cons: slightly higher weight (off set by need for spoke repair tools)

Low spoke count

Pros: slightly less weight (off set by need for spoke repair tools)
Cons: compared to higher spoke count, less strength and reliability

This of course, is a sliding scale based on wheel quality and actual spoke count. A well made 28H wheel may in fact be stronger than a crappy 32H wheel.

It also depends on what you have on hand. I wouldn't not tour because all I had was a 28H wheelset or worry unduly about it. Depending on the trip commitment I might bring some tools along. If I were building a bike from scratch and anticipated off road/gravel touring as one of the uses, and as stated money was no object, I would pay attention to wheel strength and the relationship that spoke count and other factors make.

The big question, considering a new build with unlimited funds: What benefit does one attain by chasing a lower spoke count? If the answer outweighs the risks then it's a good idea.

Last edited by Happy Feet; 09-13-19 at 12:27 PM.
Happy Feet is offline  
Likes For Happy Feet:
Old 09-13-19, 12:57 PM
  #25  
Metieval
Senior Member
Thread Starter
 
Metieval's Avatar
 
Join Date: Jul 2005
Location: Ohio
Posts: 2,150

Bikes: Road bike, Hybrid, Gravel, Drop bar SS, hard tail MTB

Mentioned: 7 Post(s)
Tagged: 0 Thread(s)
Quoted: 832 Post(s)
Liked 64 Times in 51 Posts
Originally Posted by Happy Feet View Post
Pretty sure gambling is not allowed on BF but...
it is only gambling if you are spouting bs.

reading between the bs,

I doubt that rider + bike + gear which totals < 250 lbs will be an issue for 20/24 wheelset.

and so far the only stories of broken spokes are on OEM cheap speced wheels, or from Clydesdale's, or full fledged touring, or from cheap guy selling $400 wheels. I'll read between the lines.

matter of fact the 20/24 Mavics are probably better built and stronger than the 28h OEM specced wheels on forumla hubs.

bottom line..... if you all didn't get your 32 point across.

It did make me realize that I might be better off skipping the 20/24 Mavics and just doing the Cantu Wheel.
__________________
Dawes SST AL, Cannondale Synapse Alloy 105, Giant Talon 29er, Trek Crossrip Elite,
Metieval is offline  

Thread Tools
Search this Thread

Contact Us - Archive - Advertising - Cookie Policy - Privacy Statement - Terms of Service

Copyright 2018 MH Sub I, LLC dba Internet Brands. All rights reserved. Use of this site indicates your consent to the Terms of Use.