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Doping

Old 02-22-19, 08:20 AM
  #76  
Lemond1985
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Ullrich didn't mind, he actually ENJOYED coming in second place to Lance.
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Old 02-22-19, 08:27 AM
  #77  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
Ullrich didn't mind, he actually ENJOYED coming in second place to Lance.
In racing or drug usage?
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Old 02-22-19, 10:24 PM
  #78  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
That is a made up think. What is the prototypical American? Is it one that comes from Vietnam, or Mexico - or Europe?

I don't know what a prototypical European country is either. Clearly Europe needs many countries because they are so different. They are, in need of their own countries, smaller than many USA cities because, somehow they can't agree on a language, use the same currency and defend themselves.
Until then the prototypical USA will defend them.
Americans really do have a high opinion of themselves, no matter what ethnicity they're from. You're such prototypical one. You're from Socal? Ever been seen the Mexican and Filipino guys working at those Custom booth? Yep, typical ahole American attitude, and no they're not even white.
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Old 02-22-19, 11:34 PM
  #79  
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Originally Posted by aclinjury View Post
Americans really do have a high opinion of themselves, no matter what ethnicity they're from. You're such prototypical one. You're from Socal? Ever been seen the Mexican and Filipino guys working at those Custom booth? Yep, typical ahole American attitude, and no they're not even white.
I really don't understand what you are saying. So far I have not read about what countries the non-American's are posting from. Where do you live?
I don't even know what the debate is.

I typically am seen as a power crazy arrogant guy. I think that has little to do with being from the USA (grew up in Africa) and more just my personal demeanor.

Yes, I live in SoCal. I am not "from" here. I also have a CO place, and I also am not from there.



Anyway, on topic, I asserted that the view of using PEDs for cycling in Europe is different than in the USA. I still assert that. How that is an arrogant statement / ahole American attitude, I really don't know.

You are welcome to explain it.


I am a cycling fan. I go to cycling places, I take video, I talk to people, I enjoy lots of places in Europe. But the countries in Europe are different. Just in the the feed zones and spectating cycling this is obvious. Some places ignore the rules, some don't. Czech Republic is different than Germany, is different than France, is different than Belgium...


I have 1st hand experience with race promoters, officials and fans in all the above - add Italy, and Spain. So what is it I am so out of touch with?

Last edited by Doge; 02-22-19 at 11:41 PM.
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Old 02-22-19, 11:52 PM
  #80  
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What languages do you speak?
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Old 03-01-19, 06:28 AM
  #81  
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America is the most giving country in the world. Very charitable country that we live in.
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Old 03-01-19, 07:05 AM
  #82  
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Except to high-maintenance Frenchmen, that's where we draw the line.
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Old 03-01-19, 10:16 AM
  #83  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
Agreed. Also, when you compare Froome's victories, which are often by less than a minute to Armstrong's which were often by 5 or more minutes it certainly makes it seem like the playing field is far more even today. Keep in mind that Armstrong wasn't some genetic freak, He was good, but no one ever thought he had the potential to be an elite grand tour rider, let alone the best ever.

I wouldn't be the least bit surprised to find out Froome is doping but it isn't blatantly obvious as it was with Armstrong.
Reference have been made to Lance Armstrong being one of the most tested riders. I'd remind you that, in his Oprah appearance, he said that out of competition testing was virtually unknown in his day (or words to that effect). Froome, on the other hand, had been tested 70 times, in and out of competition, in the year before his first TdF win. It seems unlikely that he could have avoided detection if he was using PEDs which were against the rules. I'll cheerfully admit that, as a Brit, I'm inclined to be somewhat biased in his favour.
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Old 03-01-19, 04:10 PM
  #84  
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Originally Posted by avole View Post
What languages do you speak?
English
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Old 03-01-19, 05:51 PM
  #85  
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It's not nice to taunt the dead, though I suppose it's a satisfying way to get in the last word. We should have a funeral for him, or at least a wake.
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Old 03-01-19, 08:44 PM
  #86  
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Originally Posted by Lemond1985 View Post
It's not nice to taunt the dead, though I suppose it's a satisfying way to get in the last word. We should have a funeral for him, or at least a wake.
True, I was not paying attention.

On to Doping. All my opinions.... I've been around the top juniors in the world for a while, and some 2nd tier pros and some old timer USA hall of fame dudes and as mentioned been to many places.

-1st Duh point - everybody is not the same.
-2nd Duh point - there are similarities found within country and culture. Races in Germany are different.
-3rd - we (USA) are pretty serious about prosecuting drug offenders. I was eating breakfast with my wife looking at the door across the street and commented that the guy we often call Jean Val Jean works there - USA Olympic HQ. I think USA cycling has pretty doping free riders at the top. I even think many of the pros are, but the serious teams know how to game the system. The top riders are using drugs, legally sometimes. But they have managers that know how to do that.
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Old 03-02-19, 12:46 PM
  #87  
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They should set up tent cities at the start points and that’s where riders will sleep each night and be monitored by security during the entirety of a tour.

Random greyhound bus tours after each stage to transport riders to next stage start point.

He he he

Im sadistic. Yes yes
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Old 04-12-19, 12:23 PM
  #88  
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Originally Posted by atbman View Post
Reference have been made to Lance Armstrong being one of the most tested riders. I'd remind you that, in his Oprah appearance, he said that out of competition testing was virtually unknown in his day (or words to that effect). Froome, on the other hand, had been tested 70 times, in and out of competition, in the year before his first TdF win. It seems unlikely that he could have avoided detection if he was using PEDs which were against the rules. I'll cheerfully admit that, as a Brit, I'm inclined to be somewhat biased in his favour.
I can remember Lance during his Tour run stating that one year he was tested over 200 times both in and out of competition. I also remember him saying that they would come to his house in the middle of the night knocking on the door to test him. So, compared to Froome, he was tested a lot more.

As for Froome, aka Puff Daddy, he did test a failure of his puffer meds. Twice the allowable limit and from what I understand, you cannot get to that limit buy simply using an inhaler. So, something smells. The fact that he was given the clear after failing the test is more than enough to guess that if they really wanted him and Sky like they did with Lance, then he would be toast. Not to mention that the Sky doctor who was supposed to testify over in England has had his testimony put on indefinite hold supposedly due to health issues. So along with the puffing comes the infamous "jiffy" bags that involve Sky and Bradley Wiggins.

Froome is on the sauce no doubt. To many suspicious rides for me. The Giro last year did it for me. One day he is a toad and the next he is flying like he has a motor on his bike. Very suspicious. I like the guy but I'm not going to close my eyes and say just because they have not caught him, he is not doping. So far this year, he does not look very good so it will be interesting to see if he suddenly turns a corner for the Tour.

For the most part, I really don't care. The guys still have to pedal. Everyone who competes wants that edge no matter what sport. You will never rid the sport or sports in general of drug enhancements so just let them do it. They know the risks, so on with the show.

But it is silly to sit there and think the UCI is catching everyone. Nonsense. They catch a few just to make it seem like they are doing something.

john
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Old 04-12-19, 12:34 PM
  #89  
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Originally Posted by rutan74 View Post
I can remember Lance during his Tour run stating that one year he was tested over 200 times both in and out of competition. ...
Lance did get caught once, early on for cortizone. UCI let him off with a post-dated prescription for cream for saddle sores. BS. Never mind that cortizone in creams do not show in your blood. Later, an out of competition tester shower up at Armstrong's quarters. It took him an hour to come out of the bathroom and let the tester in. Plenty of time for an intravenous dilute. That "never tested positive" isn't exactly telling the whole truth.

Ben
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Old 04-15-19, 11:08 AM
  #90  
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Originally Posted by 79pmooney View Post
Lance did get caught once, early on for cortizone. UCI let him off with a post-dated prescription for cream for saddle sores. BS. Never mind that cortizone in creams do not show in your blood. Later, an out of competition tester shower up at Armstrong's quarters. It took him an hour to come out of the bathroom and let the tester in. Plenty of time for an intravenous dilute. That "never tested positive" isn't exactly telling the whole truth.

Ben
My comment was not that Lance never tested positive but that at one point he was tested over 200 times in one year alone.

I know there was some funny business with the UCI where he supposedly failed a test but they, under pressure, kept it hidden. Again, Lance was a cash cow and the UCI knew it. Sweep it under the rug and move on collecting checks. Maybe, maybe not reaches or reached to the level of Froome puffing his way to a positive twice the limit and he got off with nothing.

john
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Old 05-01-19, 02:36 PM
  #91  
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The part about Sky that is so suspicious to me is the way they have a cadre of domestiques that can outclimb the rest of the world class climbers in the major stage races. When you have 4 random domestiques on the front from Sky who are climbing setting a pace that even the best climbers in the world can't attack, it starts looking a lot like US Postal. When the lead guy for Sky goes down, the next guy just steps up and dominates whichever race it is...looks a lot like US Postal. We have seen this whole story before. One team just seems to be better from top to bottom than any other team in the big races that count. One team seems to have an endless supply of domestiques who can ride the legs off of the other teams. And when guys leave Sky and go elsewhere, they just never seem to have the same level of success headlining other teams. It just so closely matches what we saw from US Postal that I just find it hard to believe it is just some super top secret training programs that put them head and shoulders above everybody else. I wish I wasn't so cynical about it, but it just doesn't pass the smell test for me.
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Old 05-01-19, 05:13 PM
  #92  
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^^^
A reason I think we should just all give up. If you dominate - you don't pass the smell test.

That the UCI (or WADA) makes rules few are satisfied they can enforce, is more a problem with the rule makers.

What generally undetected PEDs are more dangerous than the actual professional sports job? Few I can think of in cycling.

Why not make those undetectable PEDs legal - then we have what we most likely have now, but the winners - are viewed as the winners by all and they all pass the smell test.

If, the athlete doesn't want to do that stuff to their bodies, they should think about other than a pro sport career, as the (undetectable) PEDs are likely not the biggest risks they are taking.
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Old 05-03-19, 07:28 AM
  #93  
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Originally Posted by txags92 View Post
The part about Sky that is so suspicious to me is the way they have a cadre of domestiques that can outclimb the rest of the world class climbers in the major stage races. When you have 4 random domestiques on the front from Sky who are climbing setting a pace that even the best climbers in the world can't attack, it starts looking a lot like US Postal. When the lead guy for Sky goes down, the next guy just steps up and dominates whichever race it is...looks a lot like US Postal. We have seen this whole story before. One team just seems to be better from top to bottom than any other team in the big races that count. One team seems to have an endless supply of domestiques who can ride the legs off of the other teams. And when guys leave Sky and go elsewhere, they just never seem to have the same level of success headlining other teams. It just so closely matches what we saw from US Postal that I just find it hard to believe it is just some super top secret training programs that put them head and shoulders above everybody else. I wish I wasn't so cynical about it, but it just doesn't pass the smell test for me.
While Sky is certainly suspicious, I think a lot of this has to do with budget. Sky has so much money that they can afford to spend big money on their domestiques and get really good ones.

But yeah, it still is suspicious.
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Old 05-03-19, 09:42 AM
  #94  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
^^^
A reason I think we should just all give up. If you dominate - you don't pass the smell test.

That the UCI (or WADA) makes rules few are satisfied they can enforce, is more a problem with the rule makers.

What generally undetected PEDs are more dangerous than the actual professional sports job? Few I can think of in cycling.

Why not make those undetectable PEDs legal - then we have what we most likely have now, but the winners - are viewed as the winners by all and they all pass the smell test.

If, the athlete doesn't want to do that stuff to their bodies, they should think about other than a pro sport career, as the (undetectable) PEDs are likely not the biggest risks they are taking.
I have been in favor of this pathway for years. Instead of banning substances, set limits based on riders safety (i.e. can't ride with hematocrit over 53 or some other number based on the point at which blood clots and strokes become a risk). There are plenty of sports where people who are successful at it over a long period are likely to wind up with long term health issues. I think UCI and WADA should decide what things are dangerous, and monitor for immediately dangerous conditions, but otherwise, let them take whatever they want. Yeah, it basically forces anybody who wants to be successful over the long term to dope, but that is pretty much where we are right now, and as you pointed out, the current setup leads to any successful rider or team being suspected of doping (probably because they are).
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Old 05-03-19, 09:47 AM
  #95  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
While Sky is certainly suspicious, I think a lot of this has to do with budget. Sky has so much money that they can afford to spend big money on their domestiques and get really good ones.

But yeah, it still is suspicious.
Everybody said the same thing about Postal too...oh they are so well funded, they can afford the best riders and best technology, etc. But then those same guys who left Postal just never seemed to ride quite as well at other teams, and the same can be said for Sky. The guys who leave never live up to the same level as they did at Sky.
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Old 05-03-19, 10:53 AM
  #96  
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Originally Posted by txags92 View Post
Everybody said the same thing about Postal too...oh they are so well funded, they can afford the best riders and best technology, etc. But then those same guys who left Postal just never seemed to ride quite as well at other teams, and the same can be said for Sky. The guys who leave never live up to the same level as they did at Sky.
As I understand it, Postal wasn't as well funded as Sky is. But, like I said, they are definitely suspicious.
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Old 05-05-19, 08:55 AM
  #97  
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Originally Posted by OBoile View Post
As I understand it, Postal wasn't as well funded as Sky is. But, like I said, they are definitely suspicious.
Sky will unlikely have the UK anti-doping guy breathing down their necks as USADA had Travis.

They know the art of concealing is as important as the training. That is not saying what is done is not legal, but they are very secluded and private.

Sky has does not have a single "jerk" that "ruined peoples lives" that is use to justify punishment for things having nothing to do with cycling.
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Old 05-06-19, 03:56 AM
  #98  
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Originally Posted by Doge View Post
Sky will unlikely have the UK anti-doping guy breathing down their necks as USADA had Travis.

They know the art of concealing is as important as the training. That is not saying what is done is not legal, but they are very secluded and private.

Sky has does not have a single "jerk" that "ruined peoples lives" that is use to justify punishment for things having nothing to do with cycling.
Following up on multiple doping accusations isn't exactly "breathing down their necks". More like, just doing their job. There was a lot of smoke with US Postal before anyone decided to actually check and see if there was a fire. The punishment they got was certainly deserved.

Given the amount of publicity Sky has received over suspicious, but IMO, less concrete accusations, I'm not sure they would receive the same level of protection that US Postal clearly did over the years.
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Old 05-06-19, 01:42 PM
  #99  
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Right - business as usual

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Old 05-07-19, 09:20 AM
  #100  
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doping has is will be around

dopers are ahead of testers

Pantani and Armstrong were doped to the gills on Ventoux

So was most of the Peleton

Still one of the greatest displays of two guys at the height of their power

I would prefer to know all riders are clean or athletes for that matter. I have resigned to the fact they are not.

I think there should be far mor outrage when IAAF bans Senmenya and requires her to take an inhibitor

Not science based just based on the fact she is naturally different

Want to compete in any other T&F competition or any Olympic for that matter and have the condition no problem only mid distance specifically the one Semmenya competes require this testing and rule

Forget the rampant doping in the events in every sport lets shame a woman that trains hard and is good and not on dope and is refusing the "anti dope"

The country formerly known as Russia is fine to compete in spite of the KGB breaking in and swapping samples

I find the Semenya saga far more outrageous than rumors of Froome and his inhaler

I hope we get to a point that we know who dopes and stop it

I do not follow the rumors of this and just follow the races
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