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Thoughts on a possible Cinelli?

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Thoughts on a possible Cinelli?

Old 08-20-19, 05:03 PM
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Iowegian
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Thoughts on a possible Cinelli?

I'm contemplating buying this frameset as I don't have a good Cino or Eroica bike and this one fits (in both ways). I'm not an expert on Cinelli's but this sure looks like a 72-ish model although the seat stays are no where close to what is normal. The seller thinks the bike may have been repaired or modified in this area (and repainted obviously). The rest of the parts all look original and seem to be the correct parts. Seller also mentioned that the crankset was a 180mm Campy which is a bit unusual, I would think. The bike was from a neighbor who knew he was into 'old bikes'.

So what do you think? I'm out of my depth here on what this is. It's obviously not a 100% original Cinelli but that's fine with me since I'm not a collector. It does check all the boxes I need for a Cino/Eroica bike but I don't want to claim it is something it is not, as well as pay a price for something that it is not.





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Old 08-20-19, 05:46 PM
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Disclaimer: I'm no Cinelli expert.

If the seat cluster has been repaired then it's a super neat job - the seat stay caps would have been in a different location altogether. However the lack of chrome to the lug there while the other lugs are chromed may lend weight to the theory. Any evidence of repairs inside the seat tube?

The cutouts in the lugs are obviously Cinelli, but easily copied, too. I'd like to have a look under the bottom bracket shell to see what the cutout/serial number is.

Shouldn't there be cable guides on top of the bottom bracket? Is the head badge riveted on?

Looks like a nice frame either way - is the asking price factoring in Italian tax?
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Old 08-20-19, 06:18 PM
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No real idea, looks pretty good and cool from here, whatever it is, it's no slouch. The headbadge alone could justify some of the expenditure.
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Old 08-20-19, 06:21 PM
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Originally Posted by P!N20 View Post
Disclaimer: I'm no Cinelli expert.

If the seat cluster has been repaired then it's a super neat job - the seat stay caps would have been in a different location altogether. However the lack of chrome to the lug there while the other lugs are chromed may lend weight to the theory. Any evidence of repairs inside the seat tube?

The cutouts in the lugs are obviously Cinelli, but easily copied, too. I'd like to have a look under the bottom bracket shell to see what the cutout/serial number is.

Shouldn't there be cable guides on top of the bottom bracket? Is the head badge riveted on?

Looks like a nice frame either way - is the asking price factoring in Italian tax?
This likely had oldschool clamp on DT cable guide.
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Old 08-20-19, 06:36 PM
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Originally Posted by P!N20 View Post
The cutouts in the lugs are obviously Cinelli, but easily copied, too.
Trek also used those on late 70's TX900s (though they had fastback stays), and Windsor had them on Professionals.
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Old 08-20-19, 06:53 PM
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-----

one simple check you could make is shell width.

if 74 it is Cinelli.

if not 74 it "could be" Cinelli.

these lugs were widely available to all and there were several producers who did "Cinelli clones" at one time or another.

one was Pinzani.

is head emblem brass or aluminum?

a pillar size of 26.2mm would be confirmatory due to the internal sleeve employed by Cino...

-----

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Old 08-20-19, 07:27 PM
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If it's a Cinelli (which seems likely), it's either a 1970, 71 or 72 that's had the seat cluster modified, based on the badge, holes in the lugs, lack of braze-ons, etc.

Here are a couple of good resources:
Cinelli Only: Cinelli Registry for pre-1984 Cinelli's
Velo-Retro: Cinelli Timeline

Check to see if the serial numbers seem to fit with any of those in that time frame from the Cinelli Only site. Don't try to get too fancy with the serial numbers because they don't seem to have an entirely linear relationship to age of frame.
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Old 08-20-19, 07:54 PM
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Fwiw, I dont believe the head badge is original to the bike, just for show. Thats how I read the ad copy, at least.
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Old 08-20-19, 08:11 PM
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The 74 BB width and holes in the lugs are from 2 different eras. The rear dropout treatment on both chain and seat stays is atypical (part of the repair?). The BB carving is atypical. No braze-on cable guides.

That said, never say never. But a cludged Cinelli doesn't hold a premium value.
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Old 08-21-19, 09:45 PM
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Thanks everyone. I really appreciate your insight and experience.

The seat tube is 26.2 but the original post is residing in another one of the seller's bikes (with a shim) so it will have to be replaced. There are holes for the head badge that are in the right place but the badge is glued on instead. The badge is actually quite a point of negotiation at the moment since the seller has been told by a local shop that it is worth $$$. Probably right if it is legit and it certainly looks like it is brass and old.

I might just pick up the frame, get a replica head badge and call it good. I suppose if I don't put on a new head badge and don't repaint/re-decal the bike then all my concerns would be moot. It might be fun to just ride it and pretend to have no idea what it is, which isn't far from the truth!

Forgot to add - the serial number looks exactly like the ones I saw in the Cinelli-Only site, although I can't remember the numbers, etc.

Last edited by Iowegian; 08-21-19 at 09:49 PM.
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Old 08-21-19, 10:18 PM
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I'm not a Cinelli expert. I don't see this as a Cinelli. It does not even whisper Cinelli to me, not even a hint.

This thing screams repainted Windsor to me.

This is an example of why I do not approve of making fake bikes - not even replicas of fake bikes that were faked for a movie. ;-)

I like the idea of de-badging it and buying it. Then, just ride it for what it is - an awesome set of wheels. If later, it is provenance is proven, you can go and get decals and a badge.

Last edited by Bad Lag; 08-22-19 at 12:12 AM.
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Old 08-21-19, 11:47 PM
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Originally Posted by Iowegian View Post
Thanks everyone. I really appreciate your insight and experience.

The seat tube is 26.2 but the original post is residing in another one of the seller's bikes (with a shim) so it will have to be replaced. There are holes for the head badge that are in the right place but the badge is glued on instead. The badge is actually quite a point of negotiation at the moment since the seller has been told by a local shop that it is worth $$$. Probably right if it is legit and it certainly looks like it is brass and old.

I might just pick up the frame, get a replica head badge and call it good. I suppose if I don't put on a new head badge and don't repaint/re-decal the bike then all my concerns would be moot. It might be fun to just ride it and pretend to have no idea what it is, which isn't far from the truth!

Forgot to add - the serial number looks exactly like the ones I saw in the Cinelli-Only site, although I can't remember the numbers, etc.
Sold auctions on ebay will tell what the badge is worth, yes they can be worth a lot but I've seen overpriced ones not sell. The BB shell width is the big deal here, if it's not 74mm then the badge is not needed at all, even if it is the frame is off enough that the badge won't help that much aside from being cool, tell him to keep the badge, adjust your offer accordingly and wish him luck.
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Old 08-22-19, 10:37 AM
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I have a Cinelli that I intend to put Windsor decals on...

Nothing about the bike above screams Windsor to me btw. I don't recall Windsors using 26.2, and the fork crowns are different. Regardless of what it is, I don't think it's worth much.
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Old 08-22-19, 09:25 PM
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Originally Posted by KonAaron Snake View Post
I have a Cinelli that I intend to put Windsor decals on...
I want to say you're BSing, but I know you did put Huffy decals on a titanium bike...
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Old 08-23-19, 05:19 AM
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Originally Posted by noglider View Post
I want to say you're BSing, but I know you did put Huffy decals on a titanium bike...
Yeah - I’m serious. I’ve been meaning to do it for a while now, but haven’t gotten around to it; your post may be the motivation!

I’m leaving the head-badge on though.

The titanium huffy is one of my favorite ever bikes, and the decals still make me smile.
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Old 08-23-19, 10:41 PM
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I have a blank Ti bike that was imported/built by Sampson. Where does one find Huffy decals??

But I'd probably have to paint it first to make it worth while and I don't think I can go that far....
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Old 08-24-19, 12:14 PM
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Back to the OP's bike: it doesn't tic the boxes for any typical Cinelli I know of (neither a model "A" Super Corsa, or the model "B" with flat fork crown but both had the "fastback" seat cluster, nor the "C" AKA Riviera), so I think it's NOT genuine. Years back when I had a "mystery" frame I was trying to ID, which had the 3-hole lugs and coincidentally the same blue color, I got a pretty good compilation of all the brands that featured such lugs that were NOT Cinelli or Windsor/Carabela. And of of course I can't find that thread now. One Italian marque that stuck in my mind (and often featured this blue color) is Chiorda. BUT I have yet to see a bonafide example of one with the 3-hole lug treatment...just hearsay, but IIRC that came from a pretty reliable source.
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Old 08-24-19, 12:38 PM
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Iowegian, could we see the bottom of the bottom bracket? I'm at the velostuf.com site (another thread about their Campy Nuovo hoods) and a '58 Cinelli track bike on there has very similiar work down around the bb and crimping on the chain stays. That's a fine bike whatever it is. The work around the seat cluster, with the spooned stays and all, is very nice.
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Old 08-24-19, 01:04 PM
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KonAaron Snake -

I don't recall Windsors using 26.2...


This plus the bottom bracket dimension seem like good sanity checks on the frame make.

To me, the seat lug/cluster treatment is wrong, too. I am not a Cinelli expert in any way, just a non-owner fan.

... and the fork crowns are different.

Forks were easily replaced and may not be original to the frame. The Cinelli-esque, fully sloped crowns were available as aftermarket items. That the fork is blue does not mean it is original to what I'd bet is a repainted bike.
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Old 08-27-19, 11:56 AM
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I passed on the bike and someone else bought it. I hope I don't regret the decision but I don't need a project bike right now even though this one is a pretty rare find that would most likely fit me well. Hopefully the new owner will enjoy it!
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