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The Armstrong Effect

Old 07-19-09, 10:13 AM
  #26  
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Originally Posted by BillyD View Post
Well, addressing your puzzlement, it's because they think he cheated. They take it personally because they feel he got over on them, outsmarted them.

One thing you must admit, winning 7 straight tdf is an outrageous accomplishment, so it's bound to raise suspicion. I can understand that. But I feel that hey, if you can't find anything and if you can't prove anything then you need to leave the man the F alone and enjoy history.

But noooooooo, they can't stand the thought of an American kicking their ass in "their" sport. It's just too bitter a pill for them to swallow. F 'em!!
Carl Lewis, Marion Jones, Marc McGuire, Justin Gatlin, Floyd Landis, to name a few. The TdF officials have every right to be suspicious. Does not make them right to acuse without proof, but justified to be suspicious.

This was in response to your comment specifically on Americans "kicking their ass in "their" sport"".
Disclaimer: It's common knowledge that doping is a global issue and not specific to any country.

http://www.wada-ama.org/rtecontent/d...eikh_Ahmad.pdf

Last edited by xfimpg; 07-19-09 at 11:35 AM.
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Old 07-19-09, 11:34 AM
  #27  
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pcad is a cervelo rider and armstrong fan does he have hairy legs as well?

edit: lol @ not having proof on pharmstrong, dude's samples are chock full of epo
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Old 07-19-09, 12:10 PM
  #28  
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He either tested positive or not . Which is it?
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Old 07-19-09, 12:11 PM
  #29  
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I think contador is taking something. Why wouldn't you think he is getting over on em.
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Old 07-19-09, 12:14 PM
  #30  
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What Dors said. He was born with it. Otherwise everyone would be doing it.
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Old 07-19-09, 02:04 PM
  #31  
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I think you can take the anti Lance sentiments with a grain of salt unless they come from a 7 time tour winner.
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Old 07-19-09, 02:04 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by babysaph38 View Post
He either tested positive or not . Which is it?
He did test positive, several times actually.

But I don't think that's the issue, other cyclists who were caught or admitted to doping are well loved in France regardless.
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Old 07-19-09, 07:37 PM
  #33  
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What is somewhat suspicious about Lance, to me, is this three year hiatus and the eruption of BIG name positive tests that occurred while he was away. He retires at 33 for no real apparent reason, and the two following years the TdF is rocked by doping scandals among the most prominent riders. And now that the storm has passed he is back? And everyone is clean again?
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Old 07-19-09, 08:45 PM
  #34  
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Originally Posted by rogwilco View Post
He did test positive, several times actually.

But I don't think that's the issue, other cyclists who were caught or admitted to doping are well loved in France regardless.
If you are referring to the leaked samples from his 99 tour then you must take that with a grain of salt. Too much suspicion surrounding that. And if you are truly convinced that Lance did something then you must add suspect to every top rider in the peleton.
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Old 07-19-09, 08:55 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by LTJ View Post
What is somewhat suspicious about Lance, to me, is this three year hiatus and the eruption of BIG name positive tests that occurred while he was away. He retires at 33 for no real apparent reason, and the two following years the TdF is rocked by doping scandals among the most prominent riders. And now that the storm has passed he is back? And everyone is clean again?
Just wait. The conspiracy is going to get even better over the next 3 years. Next year, Team Nike/Livestrong. then, 2011-2012 LASports(or whatever it's named) will aquire 40% ownership of The Tour from ASO. Meanwhile drugs busts will all but disappear as a result of Lance's clean influence on the sport. They (ASO/L'Equipe) really would like to keep those viewership numbers that they enjoyed 99-05 and again now. If they think LA can, in any capacity, keep those numbers that high, it'll be worth it to them to give him 40%. Let's face it: It's all about entertainment and the flow of dollars, and has almost nothing to do with the altruistic values of sport that we wish it embodied.
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Old 07-19-09, 09:19 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by bigfred View Post
Just wait. The conspiracy is going to get even better over the next 3 years. Next year, Team Nike/Livestrong. then, 2011-2012 LASports(or whatever it's named) will aquire 40% ownership of The Tour from ASO. Meanwhile drugs busts will all but disappear as a result of Lance's clean influence on the sport. They (ASO/L'Equipe) really would like to keep those viewership numbers that they enjoyed 99-05 and again now. If they think LA can, in any capacity, keep those numbers that high, it'll be worth it to them to give him 40%. Let's face it: It's all about entertainment and the flow of dollars, and has almost nothing to do with the altruistic values of sport that we wish it embodied.
If you want altruistic cycling, you won't find it any better than on a weekend ride with your friends. There isn't a sport in the world that money hasn't screwed up.
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Old 07-19-09, 09:42 PM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by julian View Post
If you want altruistic cycling, you won't find it any better than on a weekend ride with your friends. There isn't a sport in the world that money hasn't screwed up.
But even my mates are on the juice! And it's only a race to the cafe.
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Old 07-19-09, 09:45 PM
  #38  
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Originally Posted by Eljimberino View Post
But even my mates are on the juice! And it's only a race to the cafe.
Well, then that is justified!
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Old 07-20-09, 10:36 AM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by LTJ View Post
What is somewhat suspicious about Lance, to me, is this three year hiatus and the eruption of BIG name positive tests that occurred while he was away. He retires at 33 for no real apparent reason, and the two following years the TdF is rocked by doping scandals among the most prominent riders. And now that the storm has passed he is back? And everyone is clean again?
I remember reading last year an interview with Tyler Hamilton and he mentionned that there is a form of "mafia" in the Tour de France organisation... so you may be on to something here.
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Old 07-20-09, 10:37 AM
  #40  
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Originally Posted by julian View Post
If you want altruistic cycling, you won't find it any better than on a weekend ride with your friends. There isn't a sport in the world that money hasn't screwed up.
Darts?
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Old 07-20-09, 11:52 AM
  #41  
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Originally Posted by rogwilco View Post
The reason Armstrong is unpopular among many cycling fans outside the US is quite simple imo. People like a winner, but they dislike someone who wins all the time. If Armstrong had lost one or two of the seven Tours, maybe because of bad luck or whatever, I'm pretty sure people would be cheering for him more in his comeback this year.
Funny how many people in the 60s and 70s loved Merckx. My wife is German and reports when she was a teen and preteen all the kids in her village loved Merckx. One should remember that Rudi Altig was active at the time and at the time was also the best German cyclist ever.
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Old 07-20-09, 11:54 AM
  #42  
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Funny how much the TDF hates Armstrong. They hate him so much that they even changed the rules to give him a better chance of picking up a KOM Jersey.
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Old 07-20-09, 03:12 PM
  #43  
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Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
Funny how many people in the 60s and 70s loved Merckx. My wife is German and reports when she was a teen and preteen all the kids in her village loved Merckx. One should remember that Rudi Altig was active at the time and at the time was also the best German cyclist ever.
And all of that for a guys that tested + 4 times. The hypocrasy that is generally exhibited with regard to the more of less universal belief that Eddy is the greatest cyclist of all time and that LA is somehow the cancer of Professional Cycling continues to amaze me.

Originally Posted by Keith99 View Post
Funny how much the TDF hates Armstrong. They hate him so much that they even changed the rules to give him a better chance of picking up a KOM Jersey.


The Tour (the organizers ASO) don't hate Lance at all. If fact his return was more or less greeted by them with open arms. They in fact, love the guy. Look what he does for their ratings and subsequent profit potential.

Let's face it folks. ProCycling, Pro Tour, and the UCI are closer to the WWE than the IOC.
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Old 07-20-09, 03:23 PM
  #44  
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Originally Posted by xfimpg View Post
I remember reading last year an interview with Tyler Hamilton and he mentionned that there is a form of "mafia" in the Tour de France organisation... so you may be on to something here.
Not sure how much you should listen to anything Mr. Unborn Twin has to say.
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Old 07-20-09, 03:44 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by Laggard View Post
Not sure how much you should listen to anything Mr. Unborn Twin has to say.
If the TDF Organization is like any other profit-based organization in the world, including Gov't, then it's the same crap.
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Old 07-20-09, 04:20 PM
  #46  
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So if you test positive you can still ride. I was unaware of that. I thought some guys that tested positive last year were kicked out
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Old 07-20-09, 07:18 PM
  #47  
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I'm a cynic so I really do think anyone will cheat if they think that the weighted expected value of being caught (and its consequences) is outweighed by not being caught (and its subsequent fruits). It doesn't matter if you are Lance, McGuire, or whomever.

Because they can't catch everyone, the geverning bodies try to manipulate the equation by making the consequence of being caught really draconian, but that still doesn't deter someone who figures they wouldn't win without doping.

I think someone like that figures, "No doping, it's guaranteed I don't win. With doping, there's a chance I win and a chance I get caught. But there's also a chance I win and don't get caught." So the worst thing that can happen from doping is the same as without: I don't get the win.
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Old 07-20-09, 07:25 PM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by challaday View Post
I'm a cynic so I really do think anyone will cheat if they think that the weighted expected value of being caught (and its consequences) is outweighed by not being caught (and its subsequent fruits). It doesn't matter if you are Lance, McGuire, or whomever.

Because they can't catch everyone, the geverning bodies try to manipulate the equation by making the consequence of being caught really draconian, but that still doesn't deter someone who figures they wouldn't win without doping.

I think someone like that figures, "No doping, it's guaranteed I don't win. With doping, there's a chance I win and a chance I get caught. But there's also a chance I win and don't get caught." So the worst thing that can happen from doping is the same as without: I don't get the win.
And they get to keep the money (salary, bonuses, race wins, endorsements may be iffy but so what).
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Old 07-20-09, 07:27 PM
  #49  
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Not everyone liked Merckx. Of course he was popular in Belgium, but people also got irritated becuase he won so much. He was also a very polarizing figure.

All the recent cycling greats were polarizing figures or battling polzarizing figures.

Merckx
Hinault
Lemond (because of Hinault)
Armstrong


Indurain was extremely likeable not polarizing and he won almost all of his stages on time trials.
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Old 07-20-09, 07:42 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by challaday View Post
I'm a cynic so I really do think anyone will cheat if they think that the weighted expected value of being caught (and its consequences) is outweighed by not being caught (and its subsequent fruits). It doesn't matter if you are Lance, McGuire, or whomever.


They, aka Astana, can't get caught. Bruyneel is a dirty mofo. They do their same tricks and the UCI does nothing about it.

They'll never test positive because there is always time to manipulate urine and blood before the testers take samples. The UCI is very complicit in all of this. Allowing certain riders to take a half-hour, even a full hour to go get ready for so called "unannounced" drug testing. The national drug agencies are aware of how corrupt the UCI is. Even this year, after the whole Armstrong showergate scandal, Bruyneel was up to his tricks again, and stalling to get his team a full hour to prepare for their "unannounced" drug test the day of the team time trial.
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