Riding "Measurement Free"
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As to the OP, I sometimes ride without any data and am starting to do it more often. I just enjoy riding my bike more without feeling that there are certain numbers I have to achieve to make it worthwhile.
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They're looking at their watch to see how fast they're currently going in relation to how fast they should be going. If I try to take a marathon at my 10k pace, I'm gonna blow up before it's half over. This is very much like how cyclists use power meters for pacing.
The fastest for the hour, Wiggins- didn't and couldn't because of rules.
I think you know I shopped my kid rowing and had a great time listening to the Princeton coach with his team that year, that won Nationals. They had the stuff. It was all about feel of the oar, boat swagger. They didn't use PM oars, or even the results from the machines. He built the boat based on what made the boat the fastest. Actually a normal thing where they have seat competition and move rowers around to see who makes the boat go faster. This is in spite of the ERG numbers.
So as posted above, I'm just looking for the elite cyclists that are public about using numbers. I don't think the elite do.
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I know little about runners. Cycling collegiate team adult was the former NCAA running champ for CO I think. He stated he ran with RPE and did not use anything. I know of a few other cyclists. To date I don't know anyone at the top who states they use a PM to go faster. I posted the two of the fastest (Cam is not USA, but a local).
The fastest for the hour, Wiggins- didn't and couldn't because of rules.
I think you know I shopped my kid rowing and had a great time listening to the Princeton coach with his team that year, that won Nationals. They had the stuff. It was all about feel of the oar, boat swagger. They didn't use PM oars, or even the results from the machines. He built the boat based on what made the boat the fastest. Actually a normal thing where they have seat competition and move rowers around to see who makes the boat go faster. This is in spite of the ERG numbers.
So as posted above, I'm just looking for the elite cyclists that are public about using numbers. I don't think the elite do.
The fastest for the hour, Wiggins- didn't and couldn't because of rules.
I think you know I shopped my kid rowing and had a great time listening to the Princeton coach with his team that year, that won Nationals. They had the stuff. It was all about feel of the oar, boat swagger. They didn't use PM oars, or even the results from the machines. He built the boat based on what made the boat the fastest. Actually a normal thing where they have seat competition and move rowers around to see who makes the boat go faster. This is in spite of the ERG numbers.
So as posted above, I'm just looking for the elite cyclists that are public about using numbers. I don't think the elite do.
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I saw it personally, which is just my opinion, but nobody local using a PM was faster than the ones that didn't. They didn't, and don't know or care the numbers in the weights. They do know who got the Strava KOM.
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Power meters are incredibly useful for training effectively, especially with any time limits. And training makes you faster. There's really no credible argument against this.
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To date I don't know anyone at the top who states they use a PM to go faster. I posted the two of the fastest (Cam is not USA, but a local).
The fastest for the hour, Wiggins- didn't and couldn't because of rules. [...]
So as posted above, I'm just looking for the elite cyclists that are public about using numbers. I don't think the elite do.
The fastest for the hour, Wiggins- didn't and couldn't because of rules. [...]
So as posted above, I'm just looking for the elite cyclists that are public about using numbers. I don't think the elite do.
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True story here. I ran the Boston Marathon the year that Rosie Ruiz "won" the event. I ran with a friend who was a tad faster than me. The pace felt really fast but somehow I did not see a mileage marker until the 10th mile. It was really crowded and I just didn't see any. I told my buddy "Jerry - this is too fast for me" and he said "hang in there - you are doing fine". I just ducked behind a group of guys and Jerry had no idea where I was so he stayed on his pace and I slowed down to mine (and just absolutely died the last 3 miles).
dave
ps. If Rosie had really run the race she said then she would have passed me somewhere in the last 3rd of the race. There were very few females in the race at that time and any time you were around a woman there would be this 'roar' that just followed you and her (followed her anyway). No way could she 'sneak around me'.
dave
ps. If Rosie had really run the race she said then she would have passed me somewhere in the last 3rd of the race. There were very few females in the race at that time and any time you were around a woman there would be this 'roar' that just followed you and her (followed her anyway). No way could she 'sneak around me'.
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My statement about Wiggins, as you know, is correct. There are no PMs used on any UCI track events (hour record). They are racing "Measurement Free", as are the two videos I posted above.
Please post the videos of those what say they ride to the numbers, as I did.
*Actually you can lookup Peace Race in Czech Republic ITT. I don't know Peter's health, but mine was recovering from sickness, being hit by a motorcycle and had the mechanic put the wheel on backwards, but did quite a bit faster time than Peter a few years before same course, same race, same age.
Last edited by Doge; 06-24-19 at 10:14 PM.
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I posted two videos, of my non-kid fast TT riders. You ignore them as data as does the author who contribute to books about training with power. I certainly understand his motivation.
But where are the videos and statements from elites that they really need them. I already posted 100% of the pros have PMs. That does not mean they train to a number. And we know in certain events they may not use them, so why train to a power number when in competition you don't get to use a PM?
This is a decade long thing that I have not seen anyone get faster from. I'm asking - show me the YouTube video. I gave you two, Fabian is another. Where are the riders saying they used a PM to win.
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I used to ride brevets in Ohio and Kentucky with another randonneur who used no electronics at all. A paper cue sheet and dead reckoning were his tools. Old school, riding a 600k with nothing but flat repair, lights, cue sheet, some money, and a bit of clothing.
He had as much fun as the rest of us, never missed a turn as far as I recall, and was a middle of the pack finisher.
Electronics can be useful, but are not by any means necessary.
He had as much fun as the rest of us, never missed a turn as far as I recall, and was a middle of the pack finisher.
Electronics can be useful, but are not by any means necessary.
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Congrats on that sub 5hr century. That requires quite a high level of fitness to achieve at any age.
As to the OP, I sometimes ride without any data and am starting to do it more often. I just enjoy riding my bike more without feeling that there are certain numbers I have to achieve to make it worthwhile.
As to the OP, I sometimes ride without any data and am starting to do it more often. I just enjoy riding my bike more without feeling that there are certain numbers I have to achieve to make it worthwhile.
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I don't think I posted about my kid, but thanks for the information. Yes, both would be faster for anything over 5 min*, certainly now, under that and I doubt you'd know. He's ridden with Peter and teammates several times.
My statement about Wiggins, as you know, is correct. There are no PMs used on any UCI track events (hour record). They are racing "Measurement Free", as are the two videos I posted above.
Please post the videos of those what say they ride to the numbers, as I did.
*Actually you can lookup Peace Race in Czech Republic ITT. I don't know Peter's health, but mine was recovering from sickness, being hit by a motorcycle and had the mechanic put the wheel on backwards, but did quite a bit faster time than Peter a few years before same course, same race, same age.
My statement about Wiggins, as you know, is correct. There are no PMs used on any UCI track events (hour record). They are racing "Measurement Free", as are the two videos I posted above.
Please post the videos of those what say they ride to the numbers, as I did.
*Actually you can lookup Peace Race in Czech Republic ITT. I don't know Peter's health, but mine was recovering from sickness, being hit by a motorcycle and had the mechanic put the wheel on backwards, but did quite a bit faster time than Peter a few years before same course, same race, same age.
#64
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Congrats on that sub 5hr century. That requires quite a high level of fitness to achieve at any age.
As to the OP, I sometimes ride without any data and am starting to do it more often. I just enjoy riding my bike more without feeling that there are certain numbers I have to achieve to make it worthwhile.
As to the OP, I sometimes ride without any data and am starting to do it more often. I just enjoy riding my bike more without feeling that there are certain numbers I have to achieve to make it worthwhile.
dave
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I don't think I posted about my kid, but thanks for the information.
Please post the videos of those what say they ride to the numbers, as I did.
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#66
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I love reading arguments like these. I ride a road bike and have never been hit by lightning. Riding road bikes is an excellent lightning bolt deterrent.
I use a power meter and get faster. Much faster than I would without it.
How do I know, because I just know. Disagree and I'll argue.
I use a power meter and get faster. Much faster than I would without it.
How do I know, because I just know. Disagree and I'll argue.
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Power meters are incredibly useful for training effectively, especially with any time limits. And training makes you faster. There's really no credible argument against this.
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I rode near electronics free forever. Just bought an Elemnt Bolt for a ride I just did to track mileage and stay in sync with the cue sheet. Pretty enlightening just riding with it and seeing average speed and trying to nudge it up. Also riding centuries solo and trying to keep the HR under a number.
Ben
Ben
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I guess that I can imagine training for the surges by simply 'riding at some high level until I cannot proceed'. And I can imagine the climb piece by simply attacking a hill such that i can't reach the top because of the pace I choose. I am not saying that I would make those training choices, but I can imagine how one would do that.
But how do you get in the miles you need? Are you thinking that on a day where your training plan requires an extended (say 50 miles) ride, you ride it in a manner that you are completely exhausted at the end? Is that it?
I just don't get it and I don't think that ANYBODY can train every day on a bike by 'training to failure'. But maybe I don't understand what you are saying.
dave
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How exactly does this 'only training to the point of fatigue work'. If I were to seriously take up training for something like maybe a competitive hundred mile bike ride of some form (just to pick something), I would need to train for riding a lot of miles, the ability to handle surges, and (possibly) extended high intensity efforts associated with longer climbs.
I guess that I can imagine training for the surges by simply 'riding at some high level until I cannot proceed'. And I can imagine the climb piece by simply attacking a hill such that i can't reach the top because of the pace I choose. I am not saying that I would make those training choices, but I can imagine how one would do that.
But how do you get in the miles you need? Are you thinking that on a day where your training plan requires an extended (say 50 miles) ride, you ride it in a manner that you are completely exhausted at the end? Is that it?
I just don't get it and I don't think that ANYBODY can train every day on a bike by 'training to failure'. But maybe I don't understand what you are saying.
dave
I guess that I can imagine training for the surges by simply 'riding at some high level until I cannot proceed'. And I can imagine the climb piece by simply attacking a hill such that i can't reach the top because of the pace I choose. I am not saying that I would make those training choices, but I can imagine how one would do that.
But how do you get in the miles you need? Are you thinking that on a day where your training plan requires an extended (say 50 miles) ride, you ride it in a manner that you are completely exhausted at the end? Is that it?
I just don't get it and I don't think that ANYBODY can train every day on a bike by 'training to failure'. But maybe I don't understand what you are saying.
dave
I am proposing a philosophy, that says max strength (and short range power) is developed through max muscle fatigue (when warmed up etc.), and then recovery. Some of these ideas have been around a very long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Slow
Typically training to failure would be only in a gym and only certain times, and ideally with a spotter so you can finish a rep. But the person does not start thinking 150# X 8 reps. They may start 80X15, then 100X12 then 150 times whatever it is, and not finish a rep. They are going to a level of fatigue. A trainer really helps.
Other times the person training is training to a fatigue level. It may not be failure. But it is based on how they feel, rest etc.
Miles on the bike are particularly good for building endurance, not so much power, as compared to a gym.
It may have been missed, but I did post above 100% of the pros have PMs. And likely many of their coaches care. It is a great tool for telling the coach what is going on.
WT pros are more about endurance, day in and day out. While it sounds ridiculous to suggest kids are faster than pros - they often are. See ToC, see swimming see many track events, on the bike and running. I don't know so much how to go from a fast 3 day racer to a 7, 12, 15 and 20 day racer. I do believe building speed is better accomplished with non bike things and non number things. "Measurement Free".
#72
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Other than in the limit of zero, time I don't see what the difference is between building endurance and power. How is it different to say I increased the watts I could maintain for X seconds (increased power) from saying I increased the time I could maintain X watts (increased endurance)? In other words, how is shifting the power-duration curve to the right different from shifting it up?
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Other than in the limit of zero, time I don't see what the difference is between building endurance and power. How is it different to say I increased the watts I could maintain for X seconds (increased power) from saying I increased the time I could maintain X watts (increased endurance)? In other words, how is shifting the power-duration curve to the right different from shifting it up?
dave
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#74
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For the cases of X being small (say under 5 seconds), vs being kind of intermediate (say 20 seconds), vs long (say 20 minutes), these are all very different physiological processes. https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/books/NBK22417/ for one of many references available.
dave
dave
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It sounds like you may not understand what I am saying, that is on me.
I am proposing a philosophy, that says max strength (and short range power) is developed through max muscle fatigue (when warmed up etc.), and then recovery. Some of these ideas have been around a very long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Slow
Typically training to failure would be only in a gym and only certain times, and ideally with a spotter so you can finish a rep. But the person does not start thinking 150# X 8 reps. They may start 80X15, then 100X12 then 150 times whatever it is, and not finish a rep. They are going to a level of fatigue. A trainer really helps.
Other times the person training is training to a fatigue level. It may not be failure. But it is based on how they feel, rest etc.
Miles on the bike are particularly good for building endurance, not so much power, as compared to a gym.
It may have been missed, but I did post above 100% of the pros have PMs. And likely many of their coaches care. It is a great tool for telling the coach what is going on.
WT pros are more about endurance, day in and day out. While it sounds ridiculous to suggest kids are faster than pros - they often are. See ToC, see swimming see many track events, on the bike and running. I don't know so much how to go from a fast 3 day racer to a 7, 12, 15 and 20 day racer. I do believe building speed is better accomplished with non bike things and non number things. "Measurement Free".
I am proposing a philosophy, that says max strength (and short range power) is developed through max muscle fatigue (when warmed up etc.), and then recovery. Some of these ideas have been around a very long time. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Super_Slow
Typically training to failure would be only in a gym and only certain times, and ideally with a spotter so you can finish a rep. But the person does not start thinking 150# X 8 reps. They may start 80X15, then 100X12 then 150 times whatever it is, and not finish a rep. They are going to a level of fatigue. A trainer really helps.
Other times the person training is training to a fatigue level. It may not be failure. But it is based on how they feel, rest etc.
Miles on the bike are particularly good for building endurance, not so much power, as compared to a gym.
It may have been missed, but I did post above 100% of the pros have PMs. And likely many of their coaches care. It is a great tool for telling the coach what is going on.
WT pros are more about endurance, day in and day out. While it sounds ridiculous to suggest kids are faster than pros - they often are. See ToC, see swimming see many track events, on the bike and running. I don't know so much how to go from a fast 3 day racer to a 7, 12, 15 and 20 day racer. I do believe building speed is better accomplished with non bike things and non number things. "Measurement Free".
dave