tubeless rim for 45c - what inner width?
12-21-18, 02:49 PM
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tubeless rim for 45c - what inner width?
Hiya all
Searched this a bit and couldn't find any consensus so I figured it's fair game to start a new thread...
So I've been running tubes my whole life and - lately getting into more gravel riding and having picked up and fallen in love with a used plus bike with tubeless setup - I'm thinking I want to give tubeless a go on my commuter/gravel build. But I am unclear on how to match up rim sizes to tire sizes.
I'm running 40 mm tires but would like the rim to cover 45 mm tires.
For example, Stans Grail with a 20.6 mm ID says it's optimized for 28 - 40 mm tires: https://www.notubes.com/catalog/prod...m/category/89/
But then the Stars Crest with a 23 mm ID says it's optimized for 2.0 - 2.25" tires (51 - 57 mm)
https://www.notubes.com/crest-mk3-rims
Then I found an eBay listing for wtb i23 stp rims with text on the rim stating that the inner rim width of 23 mm is for a recommended tire size of 37 mm - 62 mm (which would work for me)
This sizing seems all over the place to me. I know size isn't everything too.
So what's the philosophy behind matching rims to tires in the tubeless world? Since it is a different animal than tubed tires, I imagined the famous chart wasn't necessarily applicable.
https://bikerumor-wpengine.netdna-ss...ards-chart.gif
Would love to hear your thoughts in what rim size should I go with for the 38-45 mm tire range.
Cheers
Searched this a bit and couldn't find any consensus so I figured it's fair game to start a new thread...
So I've been running tubes my whole life and - lately getting into more gravel riding and having picked up and fallen in love with a used plus bike with tubeless setup - I'm thinking I want to give tubeless a go on my commuter/gravel build. But I am unclear on how to match up rim sizes to tire sizes.
I'm running 40 mm tires but would like the rim to cover 45 mm tires.
For example, Stans Grail with a 20.6 mm ID says it's optimized for 28 - 40 mm tires: https://www.notubes.com/catalog/prod...m/category/89/
But then the Stars Crest with a 23 mm ID says it's optimized for 2.0 - 2.25" tires (51 - 57 mm)
https://www.notubes.com/crest-mk3-rims
Then I found an eBay listing for wtb i23 stp rims with text on the rim stating that the inner rim width of 23 mm is for a recommended tire size of 37 mm - 62 mm (which would work for me)
This sizing seems all over the place to me. I know size isn't everything too.
So what's the philosophy behind matching rims to tires in the tubeless world? Since it is a different animal than tubed tires, I imagined the famous chart wasn't necessarily applicable.
https://bikerumor-wpengine.netdna-ss...ards-chart.gif
Would love to hear your thoughts in what rim size should I go with for the 38-45 mm tire range.
Cheers
12-21-18, 03:08 PM
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This is less a "what tire size" issue...than a "what maximum pressure do you want/need" issue. You'll run into frame clearance problems long before you run into a rim/tire compatibility problem. If you check the rim specifications...the max pressure rating drops as rims get wider internally. MTB rims for example top out at 40-50PSI depending...whereas road/"gravel" targeted rims top out 90-120PSI(ish) depending.
Easton has a pressure guide chart showing the trend: https://www.eastoncycling.com/media/...20pressure.pdf which you'll see rim makers posted max pressure rating follow (generally). Which if all you ever run is 40mm class tires at 45PSI, it is no biggie...but if you ever want to run narrower/higher-pressure tires you can run into a problem.
I like wider format rims no matter the tire (20-21mm class.. But they do make tires distort large from their ETRTO label....I should do a wheel review of the Light-Bicycle set I got build come the new year with more miles on them....
Easton has a pressure guide chart showing the trend: https://www.eastoncycling.com/media/...20pressure.pdf which you'll see rim makers posted max pressure rating follow (generally). Which if all you ever run is 40mm class tires at 45PSI, it is no biggie...but if you ever want to run narrower/higher-pressure tires you can run into a problem.
I like wider format rims no matter the tire (20-21mm class.. But they do make tires distort large from their ETRTO label....I should do a wheel review of the Light-Bicycle set I got build come the new year with more miles on them....
12-21-18, 03:38 PM
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of note, the max tire pressure on those charts is due to blow off risk, not actually rim strength issues. So if you go narrower you can run a higher pressure such that it isn't really an issue. Plenty of cyclocrossers running MTB wheels with road tires/pressures during the summer months.
12-21-18, 04:30 PM
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It depends on the tire. A lot of tires with aggressive side knobs are more sensitive to rim width than a tire with less aggressive side knobs. The issue is that too wide a rim pushes the knobs higher relative to the sideall and cornering ends up riding up on the knobs early and feels less confident with less traction.
I like ~20mm inside width. I’ve found wider and the tire starts getting shorter, pinch flats become more of an issue as the comfort window gets narrower as comfort is from vertical compliance and not width.
I’d go with the Stans rims, I like them a lot. I think grail is better than the crest but they’re both good. I’ve got a few thousand on grails and several thousand on crest.
I like ~20mm inside width. I’ve found wider and the tire starts getting shorter, pinch flats become more of an issue as the comfort window gets narrower as comfort is from vertical compliance and not width.
I’d go with the Stans rims, I like them a lot. I think grail is better than the crest but they’re both good. I’ve got a few thousand on grails and several thousand on crest.
12-21-18, 04:45 PM
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Specifics
Thanks for the fast replies
so more specifics: I am running the clement mso xplorer 40s and, were I to go larger, it would be something like a riddler 45 or an xplorer 50 (at least upfront where I have the clearance)
pressure-wise, I usually run 55-60 psi in commuter mode, 45-50 psi on dry gravel and around 32-35 psi in the soggy stuff (at least on the 40c, so I suppose a few psi lower on a 45)
So if - as has been said - these mfr recs are based on blow off pressure, then a 20 mm internal seems fine for the pressure consideration. Stans grail seems like a winner.
Would you mount a 40 mm on a 23 mm internal? Or is that getting too narrow?
so more specifics: I am running the clement mso xplorer 40s and, were I to go larger, it would be something like a riddler 45 or an xplorer 50 (at least upfront where I have the clearance)
pressure-wise, I usually run 55-60 psi in commuter mode, 45-50 psi on dry gravel and around 32-35 psi in the soggy stuff (at least on the 40c, so I suppose a few psi lower on a 45)
So if - as has been said - these mfr recs are based on blow off pressure, then a 20 mm internal seems fine for the pressure consideration. Stans grail seems like a winner.
Would you mount a 40 mm on a 23 mm internal? Or is that getting too narrow?
12-21-18, 04:46 PM
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There was a chart from WTB which I can't find right now but basically for 45mm tire a 22-23mm internal rim is a nice compromise. I noticed that with WTB tires when you are on the narrower side of rims they are not as optimal. For example a WTB Resolute 650x42 on a 19mm internal rim ends up being 40.5mm wide. But same tire on a 22.5mm rim (dt swiss xr361) it ends up being 43.5mm. I'd rather the tire be wider than narrower but others might like it the other way around.
12-21-18, 04:54 PM
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Ahh here it is. This is per Schwalbe's recommendation which I found as a good middle ground.
Also to note Stan's rims are a little on the softer side. If that's what you want cool but also take a look at DT Swiss rims. Every shop I've walked into has recommended the XR rims if you are not looking for something deep dish.
Also to note Stan's rims are a little on the softer side. If that's what you want cool but also take a look at DT Swiss rims. Every shop I've walked into has recommended the XR rims if you are not looking for something deep dish.
12-21-18, 04:55 PM
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Thanks for the fast replies
so more specifics: I am running the clement mso xplorer 40s and, were I to go larger, it would be something like a riddler 45 or an xplorer 50 (at least upfront where I have the clearance)
pressure-wise, I usually run 55-60 psi in commuter mode, 45-50 psi on dry gravel and around 32-35 psi in the soggy stuff (at least on the 40c, so I suppose a few psi lower on a 45)
So if - as has been said - these mfr recs are based on blow off pressure, then a 20 mm internal seems fine for the pressure consideration. Stans grail seems like a winner.
Would you mount a 40 mm on a 23 mm internal? Or is that getting too narrow?
so more specifics: I am running the clement mso xplorer 40s and, were I to go larger, it would be something like a riddler 45 or an xplorer 50 (at least upfront where I have the clearance)
pressure-wise, I usually run 55-60 psi in commuter mode, 45-50 psi on dry gravel and around 32-35 psi in the soggy stuff (at least on the 40c, so I suppose a few psi lower on a 45)
So if - as has been said - these mfr recs are based on blow off pressure, then a 20 mm internal seems fine for the pressure consideration. Stans grail seems like a winner.
Would you mount a 40 mm on a 23 mm internal? Or is that getting too narrow?
For reference... "40mm" (labeled as 700x38) Vittoria Terrene Dry tires inflate to 42+mm on 21mm rims.
12-21-18, 05:04 PM
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It depends on the tire. A lot of tires with aggressive side knobs are more sensitive to rim width than a tire with less aggressive side knobs. The issue is that too wide a rim pushes the knobs higher relative to the sideall and cornering ends up riding up on the knobs early and feels less confident with less traction.
I like ~20mm inside width. I’ve found wider and the tire starts getting shorter, pinch flats become more of an issue as the comfort window gets narrower as comfort is from vertical compliance and not width.
I’d go with the Stans rims, I like them a lot. I think grail is better than the crest but they’re both good. I’ve got a few thousand on grails and several thousand on crest.
I like ~20mm inside width. I’ve found wider and the tire starts getting shorter, pinch flats become more of an issue as the comfort window gets narrower as comfort is from vertical compliance and not width.
I’d go with the Stans rims, I like them a lot. I think grail is better than the crest but they’re both good. I’ve got a few thousand on grails and several thousand on crest.
12-21-18, 05:06 PM
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the bike I test rode was the GK SK on (I think) 25 internal and also had an AX Fork on 853 steel. Smoooth!
however, I don't think I'd ever run the SK... I like the MSO.
Last edited by Metieval; 12-21-18 at 05:10 PM.
12-21-18, 05:18 PM
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What is your budget? Lots of rims out there around that class....although the 21-25mm category gets a bit thin in alloy rims....further once you start shopping high-end alloy rims, with nice hubs you find yourself in high-3 and low-4 figures wheel costs.
For reference... "40mm" (labeled as 700x38) Vittoria Terrene Dry tires inflate to 42+mm on 21mm rims.
For reference... "40mm" (labeled as 700x38) Vittoria Terrene Dry tires inflate to 42+mm on 21mm rims.
Noted on the Terrene Dry. That's a pretty dramatic deviation. Like Continental in the opposite direction.
Ahh here it is. This is per Schwalbe's recommendation which I found as a good middle ground.
Also to note Stan's rims are a little on the softer side. If that's what you want cool but also take a look at DT Swiss rims. Every shop I've walked into has recommended the XR rims if you are not looking for something deep dish.
Also to note Stan's rims are a little on the softer side. If that's what you want cool but also take a look at DT Swiss rims. Every shop I've walked into has recommended the XR rims if you are not looking for something deep dish.
I'm not attached to one brand or the other. Stan's dominates tubeless marketing but I'm open to any solid wheels.
12-21-18, 05:33 PM
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I'd love to eventually build up a really nice set but, for now, I'd like to get a trial wheel set just to test out the tubeless waters. I see there a lot of almost-new wheel sets of DT Swiss, Stans, WTB on eBay between 200 and 300. There is of course that undeniable itch just to go for the gold and build the dream set, but the more reasonable side of me is the one that's currently online
Noted on the Terrene Dry. That's a pretty dramatic deviation. Like Continental in the opposite direction.
Yea that's the chart that dominates the web search. I just didn't know whether the same guideline applies to tubeless.
I'm not attached to one brand or the other. Stan's dominates tubeless marketing but I'm open to any solid wheels.
Noted on the Terrene Dry. That's a pretty dramatic deviation. Like Continental in the opposite direction.
Yea that's the chart that dominates the web search. I just didn't know whether the same guideline applies to tubeless.
I'm not attached to one brand or the other. Stan's dominates tubeless marketing but I'm open to any solid wheels.
12-22-18, 09:55 AM
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Exactly what @gus6464 says. In my experience the Schwalbe chart is good for tubeless setups. For tubeless you want to match the rim with a bit more precisely for your desired tire widths in order to get a good sidewall and tread profile when inflated to your chosen pressures.
The chart is definitely conservative for tubed setups though. Once you put tubes in I've found you can go as narrow as the outer width of the rim for tire width (e.g. matching a 28mm tire to a 28mm external width rim). My full suspension mountain bike came stock with 17mm internal width rims and 2.25 inch tires, and I run 22mm internal width rims with 32mm tires on my commuter bike. Both setups function with no perceptible issues.
The chart is definitely conservative for tubed setups though. Once you put tubes in I've found you can go as narrow as the outer width of the rim for tire width (e.g. matching a 28mm tire to a 28mm external width rim). My full suspension mountain bike came stock with 17mm internal width rims and 2.25 inch tires, and I run 22mm internal width rims with 32mm tires on my commuter bike. Both setups function with no perceptible issues.
12-22-18, 10:20 AM
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FWIW
someone on Instagram has 42c WTB Resolute on 24 internal hookless and said they measure out to around 45.mm
someone on Instagram has 42c WTB Resolute on 24 internal hookless and said they measure out to around 45.mm
12-22-18, 03:18 PM
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Read somewhere that rule of thumb is for every 1mm you go up in rim width internal you get ~0.4-0.5mm in tire width. That is when starting out at the nominal rim width for the given tire.
12-22-18, 06:51 PM
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I think you'll do fine with either i21 or i23 for anything from 35-50mm tires. One thing to keep in mind is that rim and tire diameter varies a bit between brands. WTB makes great rims and tires that work beautifully together and with some other brands, but not all. They use a standard that is slightly smaller than what Stan's uses, which most others also come close to. Sometimes, putting a WTB tire on a Stan's rim can be challenging. The WTB Resolute tires I have mounted to Roval carbon rims are the hardest to mount tires I have ever experienced. I was about to give up but managed to get them on with help. That said, they sealed up easily and have been trouble free. But I hope I never need to put a tube in one of them to finish a ride.
Last edited by BluesDawg; 12-23-18 at 09:20 AM.
12-22-18, 11:07 PM
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I think you'll do fine with either i21 or 123 for anything from 35-50mm tires. One thing to keep in mind is that rim and tire diameter varies a bit between brands. WTB makes great rims and tires that work beautifully together and with some other brands, but not all. They use a standard that is slightly smaller than what Stan's uses, which most others also come close to. Sometimes, putting a WTB tire on a Stan's rim can be challenging. The WTB Resolute tires I have mounted to Roval carbon rims are the hardest to mount tires I have ever experienced. I was about to give up but managed to get them on with help. That said, they sealed up easily and have been trouble free. But I hope I never need to put a tube in one of them to finish a ride.
Last edited by Bingod; 01-07-19 at 12:52 AM. Reason: SX-2 not PR-2
12-27-18, 09:40 AM
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Good to know. I hadn't come across the Resolutes before but they seem to have better reviews than the Riddlers, particularly as a tubeless tire. So mounting these on the DT Swiss RR481s with 22 mm internal would put me around 44 mm wide. And my current MSO Xplorer 40 mm would be around 42 mm. Perfect.
12-27-18, 02:11 PM
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Good to know. I hadn't come across the Resolutes before but they seem to have better reviews than the Riddlers, particularly as a tubeless tire. So mounting these on the DT Swiss RR481s with 22 mm internal would put me around 44 mm wide. And my current MSO Xplorer 40 mm would be around 42 mm. Perfect.
