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Roadies, not on board with assist - prepare to be C&V'd

Road Cycling “It is by riding a bicycle that you learn the contours of a country best, since you have to sweat up the hills and coast down them. Thus you remember them as they actually are, while in a motor car only a high hill impresses you, and you have no such accurate remembrance of country you have driven through as you gain by riding a bicycle.” -- Ernest Hemingway

Roadies, not on board with assist - prepare to be C&V'd

Old 07-22-19, 01:25 PM
  #51  
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Originally Posted by Carbonfiberboy View Post
OTOH, one of our fastest riders has a 25 mile commute, each way. He bought an ebike, and now it's an hour commute and he doesn't arrive sweaty. That's on the road, not a MUP. I'm fine with that. Dice with the MVs like any motorbike.
Commuting and towing a kiddo trailer are two scenarios where I can personally see myself wanting an e-bike. I definitely don't see any issue with their proliferation other than the increased risk to MUP users or poorly organized group rides associated with people riding faster than their skill level.
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Old 07-22-19, 01:31 PM
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I'm already a C&V'er so no BFD, But (I'll say it again) if I ever get to the point where I need an ebike or recumbent--someone just shoot me, please.
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Old 07-22-19, 01:35 PM
  #53  
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A friend did an ebike conversion and rode it on a few group rides while he was recovering from surgery. We all got a kick when he would cruise past us up the hills, laughing all the way. He didn't pretend to be cycling, was just out with his friends. He would have had no part of contesting a sprint or posting his "ride" to Strava. I don't think any A group will view an e-rider as competition.
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Old 07-22-19, 01:37 PM
  #54  
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Cat1, Cat2, the hardcore enthusiasts (like me) won’t be threatened into e-territory - but just a smaller niche of adult cycling, with the inherent threat that the latest and greatest in new bike development is moving away from our primary interest - that is = you’ve been C&V’d.
been there, done that, no harm.....

Example:
i’ll guess the next best transmission improvement might be for the e-bike space. Where it can best be utilized.

tire technology for the 2inch+ crowd, minimized for the sub-42mm sector. Just in keeping with the ‘fatter is faster’ theory.....

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Old 07-22-19, 01:50 PM
  #55  
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Originally Posted by TimothyH View Post
Millions of people ride e-bikes every day.

A pro rides and e-bike and it is news.

Someone pass the cream and sugar.


-Tim-
When the Pro is the most popular guy on the race circuit + 3X world champ and the e-bike is a sleek CF racer from the (current) most successful racing shop of a major manufacturer (edit: company is Specialized) = maybe it is a big deal showing it on a TdF rest day. Some pretty successful industry execs thought it was a deal, they decked out more than 1 team.

Enjoy the coffee - White + sweet

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Old 07-22-19, 02:03 PM
  #56  
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Funny side note, I got called out a few weeks ago as I passed a couple of guys on this:



One yelled something about passing them on an Ebike so I drifted back and let him know it was a 20 year old UCI outlawed bike... but not an Ebike, LOL!
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Old 07-22-19, 02:23 PM
  #57  
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Originally Posted by Wildwood View Post
For you maybe.
Current society = it's about winning, not about busting any nuts, especially your own.
So true. We got people doping in Fondos. All of those runners that cheat. Heck, look at all of the money spent in the cycling/tri industry to gain a small real or perceived advantage..............on the amateur and recreational level.

Now that the some of the mfgers have came to markets with their bikes/systems, the side industry of refining, evolving and making those systems work in a standard frame will take off as well. As the old saying goes, "If you and cheating, you ain't trying."

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Old 07-22-19, 02:57 PM
  #58  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
So true. We got people doping in Fondos. All of those runners that cheat. Heck, look at all of the money spent in the cycling/tri industry to gain a small real or perceived advantage..............on the amateur and recreational level.
US Masters races (and we guess many non-pro 'competitions') are rife with people on 'life enhancement medications'. ie = I Survived the DEATH Ride, or the Death Valley Double Century, Hotter n Hell Hundred, Mt Washington Race

There is also the fact that it can be a fine line between doping and 3 week long/endurance sport nutrition. Ketones?

So we are NOT talking about that subject in this thread. The original comment, 'current society about winning', was not intended as a doping implication.

Shortcuts to 'successful cycling speeds', without months/years of specific training might be a strong e-bike attraction (with a sleek CF frame) to otherwise athletic or outdoor people. Especially anyone who might be inclined to hang with fast cycling associates. (edit: know anyone like that?)
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Old 07-22-19, 02:59 PM
  #59  
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An area I see these bikes as being beneficial is to elderly riders that may no longer be able to generate the output they once did.

At the gym I go to there is an older gentleman, probably in his 70's, who is there most days. I was told months ago he normally rides a bike there but had an injury or aliment and wasn't currently able to ride. Then, a three weeks ago he was back to riding as he left on his Trek commuter bike. Last week when I was him he was leaving on a brand spanking new Trek E-bike. They guy rides to the gym, busts his butt while he is there instead of spending 90% of his time with his face buried in his phone as I see about half the people do, then rides home again on his bike. More power to him. If it keeps him on the bike and active it is a good thing in IMHO. I plan to strike up a conversation next time I see him. Although the day I need assist is hopefully in the distant future, it will eventually arrive.
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Old 07-22-19, 03:25 PM
  #60  
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Originally Posted by Wildwood View Post
US Masters races (and we guess many other non-pro 'competitions') are rife with people on 'life enhancement medications'. ie = I Survived the DEATH Ride.

There is also the fact that it can be a fine line between doping and 3 week long/endurance sport nutrition. Ketones?

So we are NOT talking about that subject in this thread. The original comment, 'current society about winning', was not intended as a doping implication. Shortcuts to 'successful cycling speeds', without months/years of specific training seems a strong e-bike attraction to otherwise athletic or outdoor people.
Definitely just about bikes with some sort of assist.
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Old 07-22-19, 04:37 PM
  #61  
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I predict the already awful obesity epidemic will only get worst and future health costs in America, already sky high, will rise accordingly.
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Old 07-22-19, 04:41 PM
  #62  
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Originally Posted by seypat View Post
Definitely just about bikes with some sort of assist.

Not all bike or e-bike engines will be tuned to the same level.

With all the road bike claims out there - lighter, stiffer,...
Wait until the e-bike marketers take it to the next level...
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Old 07-22-19, 04:58 PM
  #63  
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Originally Posted by caloso View Post
The A rides I go on are pretty much all racers, with a definite skew to 1s and 2s. I don't see it happening.
I think people are overestimating the assist from ebikes. Beyond 28mph they provide no assistance and I don't think 28mph is going to win any sprints on an A-ride. The reality is there are many points in a ride where an e-bike rider would simply get dropped. If they were strong enough to ride with no assist they wouldn't have the e-bike. It's a non-issue.

I've seen coaches use them to keep up with pros on training rides. Although with the size of the batteries they wouldn't be useful for anything other than short rides.
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Old 07-22-19, 05:45 PM
  #64  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
I think people are overestimating the assist from ebikes. Beyond 28mph they provide no assistance and I don't think 28mph is going to win any sprints on an A-ride. The reality is there are many points in a ride where an e-bike rider would simply get dropped. If they were strong enough to ride with no assist they wouldn't have the e-bike. It's a non-issue.

I've seen coaches use them to keep up with pros on training rides. Although with the size of the batteries they wouldn't be useful for anything other than short rides.
Wait till people start modifying those motors/systems just for the heck of it. My son attends a high school with an engineering specialty center. Their STEM First Robotics team ended this season ranked 4th at the world championships. They have a fully supported shop with more than enough technology and tools to do the job. CAD programs, CNC machines, 3D printers(one is a CF printer) etc, etc. But what they really have going for them is about 60 students with big brains and the interest and knowledge to do it. Also about 10 mentors that are electrical/mechanical engineers and do that sort of thing for a living. If I let them work on one for a couple of weeks it would come back a lot faster than before. The question would be how much would it cost me.
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Old 07-22-19, 05:50 PM
  #65  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
I think people are overestimating the assist from ebikes. Beyond 28mph they provide no assistance and I don't think 28mph is going to win any sprints on an A-ride. The reality is there are many points in a ride where an e-bike rider would simply get dropped. If they were strong enough to ride with no assist they wouldn't have the e-bike. It's a non-issue.

I've seen coaches use them to keep up with pros on training rides. Although with the size of the batteries they wouldn't be useful for anything other than short rides.
The popular mid and direct drive motors will take you well beyond 28 mph, maybe 35-40 mph. But most typical ebike riders are not capable of the cadence so they usually resort to throttle.
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Old 07-22-19, 05:56 PM
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Originally Posted by Elvo View Post
The popular mid and direct drive motors will take you well beyond 28 mph, maybe 35-40 mph. But most typical ebike riders are not capable of the cadence so they usually resort to throttle.
I don't think group rides are in danger of being infected by scooters or high powered e-bikes. No one wants to be a pariah. Like I said it's a non-issue.
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Old 07-22-19, 06:53 PM
  #67  
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Originally Posted by Rides4Beer View Post
What is C&V?
Classics & Vintage - I think, maybe.
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Old 07-22-19, 07:28 PM
  #68  
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I think e-bikes are bringing a lot of people to cycling who would not be riding otherwise. Some for transportation, which IMO is a good thing - one less car.

As for sport cycling, we had a older cyclist show up regularly to a group TT. The group actually liked having him out there, riding a constant 25 MPH. Nobody considered him a competitor, just a target either to chase or stay ahead of.

I can see somebody screwing up a group ride, particularly if we get stealthy e-assist bikes.

One consequence of e-bikes will be more and more MUPS with posted speed limits.
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Old 07-22-19, 08:14 PM
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
I think people are overestimating the assist from ebikes. Beyond 28mph they provide no assistance and I don't think 28mph is going to win any sprints on an A-ride. The reality is there are many points in a ride where an e-bike rider would simply get dropped. If they were strong enough to ride with no assist they wouldn't have the e-bike. It's a non-issue.
As I said, 28 mph won't win me a sprint, but a chunk of that used only to make it easy for me to cruise up a solid climb that you then burn a few matches chasing after me and I'm going to be more rested and in a better spot to contest a sprint while you're gassed. Similarly, turn on assist at just the right time and maybe I can gap you off the back into a headwind at little cost to myself. I wouldn't personally do it, but I can see how someone might think that a stealth motor used very judiciously would give them that last little edge that they "need".
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Old 07-22-19, 08:51 PM
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How are stealth motors a thing? Is there some mad new tech I'm not aware of that can provide drive silently?
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Old 07-22-19, 09:20 PM
  #71  
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Originally Posted by MoAlpha View Post
The only place you see these is in museums now. Sad!

That is because of those opposing horizontal drop-outs.
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Old 07-22-19, 09:21 PM
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Originally Posted by himespau View Post
As I said, 28 mph won't win me a sprint, but a chunk of that used only to make it easy for me to cruise up a solid climb that you then burn a few matches chasing after me and I'm going to be more rested and in a better spot to contest a sprint while you're gassed. Similarly, turn on assist at just the right time and maybe I can gap you off the back into a headwind at little cost to myself. I wouldn't personally do it, but I can see how someone might think that a stealth motor used very judiciously would give them that last little edge that they "need".
I just don't see it happening. All of the 'stealth' bikes top out at 28mph which won't help on a slight downhill, tailwind or sprint. I think they're great for commuting but don't think they belong in group rides. I have a Copenhagen wheel I occasionally use for commuting and don't think it would be very save riding in close proximity to others.
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Old 07-22-19, 09:35 PM
  #73  
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
All of the 'stealth' bikes top out at 28mph
No, they don't.

A truly concealed motor would be turning the cranks the same as the rider does; the only way it would even "know" the actual road speed would be if it had a wheel sensor for that purpose in order to fit some legal category.
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Old 07-22-19, 09:39 PM
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Originally Posted by UniChris View Post
No, they don't.
Which ones don't? Trek, Specialized?
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Old 07-22-19, 09:42 PM
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Originally Posted by gregf83 View Post
Which ones don't? Trek, Specialized?
Things sold by reputable domestic brands / dealers may be limited in stock configuration, but parts and imports don't have artificial limitations.

Hub motors aren't exactly stealth - the kinds of things that there are concerns with people actually cheating with are motors hidden inside the frame adding power to the existing drivetrain. Even with hub motors though, it would be a simple firmware modification.

This is the kind of thing that's often talked about in terms of really concealed motors:

https://www.vivax-assist.com/de/prod...assist_4-0.php

That is configured with drive gears in terms of cadence, not speed. And even if a system like that had a wheel sensor so it could be represented as cutting out at a certain actual speed, it would be easily fooled... if it's smart enough to shut off with no input from the wheel sensor, it would still be a trivial project to make a tiny microcontroller simulate an output at 2/3 of the actual wheel speed.

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