mack_turtle

I really only have space and the budget for two bikes. Plus I like to keep things simple, so two bikes is great. I have a Surly Karate Monkey that is primarily a single-speed hardtail, but sometimes it gets a 1x9 and sometimes it's rigid if I'm feeling saucy. but it remains a mountain bike for singletrack use.

my other bike is a Pake C'mute with bar-end shifters. sometimes it has a rack and fenders, sometimes knobby tires, sometimes narrow slicks. it's an all-weather commuter, road bike, gravel racer, and light singletrack ripper, depending on how I have it set up and where I ride it.

Lately I have been riding a lot more on the road and I wonder if a "real" road bike would suit me better for commute/road purposes, and leave the dirt to the mountain bike, which I can modify to serve the purpose of mixed surface adventure rides, trails, and the occasional gravel race (I have done three in the past year). by "'real' road bike," I mean something a bit lighter with reasonable room for 28mm tires and fenders (the Pake can take 45's), brifters instead of bar-cons, accommodations for a rack, etc. I don't want a race road bike, just something quick and nimble but practical.

Purchasing such a bike would necessitate selling the Pake to appease well-founded spousal concerns about budget, space, and bicycle obsession. I can do it financially, assuming someone will buy my Pake, or enough of the parts, but I am afraid I might end up finding the venture not worth the trouble and that I was better off with the C'mute even though it seems clunky and over-built for my needs.

TLDR: should I sell my Frankencross bike to get a zippier road bike?

mack_turtle

not sure why I posted this in this particular forum...

I guess what I am asking is- for those of you you have a "recreational cyclocross/ Gravel bike," do you think such a bike makes better good road/ commute bike than a conventional road bike? does such a bike do anything well for which a mountain bike would be a better choice? is there any point in having a 'tweener bike instead of two purpose-built bikes?

Andy_K 

The fact that you want to be able to use 700x28 tires with fenders makes this question harder. There are some nice road bikes that will do that but they generally aren't light and aren't zippy. They're more comfort oriented.

For years I used CX bikes as my road bike. With a set of nice tires they do a great job on the road. Then a few years ago I got an older LeMond road bike with 853 steel and racier geometry. That was a lot of fun to ride but didn't fit quite right so last summer I built a full carbon Ridley Excalibur. I love riding this bike, but it only sees paved roads and sunny days. For pure road riding I would say it's worth the difference over a CX bike, but if I had to count on it for commuting and utility use I'd probably want something else.

That said, the bike at the top of my wish list right now, the Kona Kapu, might work for you. It is comfort oriented like I said before, but it's reasonably light and also happens to be gorgeous.

Barrettscv 

I've had good results with a carbon fiber CX bike as an all purpose sport bike. I am using Pedal Force CX2. It's a great road bike alternative, 98% of the speed but twice the utility. The larger 700x32 tires on the CX2 allow me to enjoy the smoother trails and gravel that are common in the Midwest. I also can just ride across the pot-holed and patched suburban streets without the usual bob-and-weave that is necessary when on a smaller tire.

The added inertia of the wheelset and larger tires does slow acceleration by a small amount, the bike is a little slower to wind up. However the actual overall difference in speed on my usual route is about 2% or about 0.35 mph.

However, the ride quality is exceptional. the bike feels solid and is very responsive, but the tires provide the right amount of suppleness that is very relaxing. If I need to maximize my speed by 2%, I still have a road bike.

The bike will also take fenders and a rear rack. I expect the bike to become my #1 ride.

Andy_K 

Yeah, I was going to suggest that a better CX bike might be the answer and there are a lot of nice options in the CX/adventure/gravel market these days.

BluesDawg

For a good time the best option for what you describe has been a CX bike, but the bike industry has just begun to recognize the need for more versatile road bikes like was the norm before everything became more narrowly focused around the start of the 90s or so. Check out the new "gravel" or "adventure road" bikes at the shops before you make a choice. This is a new category, so examples in stock may be limited, but many manufacturers now have examples in their lineups.

mack_turtle

I feel like what I have already in the C'mute is a "gravel bike" and I would like something more pavement-oriented because it so rarely sees dirt. I am just wondering if a road bike will be a big letdown regarding how well it performs as on long rides on the open road and on my 10 mile commute to work. how different could a bike with narrow slicks and brifters be from my bike with the same tires but canti brakes and barcons? (the main reason I have barcons is that they were way cheaper than proper road brifters.) the kind of bikes I have in mind include the Surly Pacer, Novara Verita, Soma Smoothie, Raleigh Clubman, etc. I really like the aesthetics of steel and all these bikes have room for decent sized tires but no unnecessarily fat tires.

Andy_K 

I really don't think you'd notice a huge difference between your current bike and one of those.

09box

How about a seperate set of road wheels/tires for your Frankenbike?

Kopsis

Where you are riding is part of the equation -- how you are riding is the other. For some, road rides resemble racing with attacking and sprints and spirited climbs and fast descents all as part of a possibly large group of riders. For others, road rides are steady solitary efforts. Where you fall on this spectrum determines how much of an "improvement" you'll notice with a pure road (racing) bike. For example, if you have to shift quickly at a moments notice to cover an attack, then having brifters is pretty nice. If you have to scrub lots of speed approaching tight corners on a descent, then road calipers will be an improvement over cantis. If you do a lot of climbing, a 5 - 10 lb lighter bike will be quite noticeable. If you don't do those things (or do them rarely relative to your other use of the bike), then you may find yourself with buyer's remorse once the placebo effect of the new bike wears off.

alex jb

Very well thought out reply.
If you want a new bike, go for it, but beware of marginal improvement after significant outlay

mack_turtle

Thanks folks. I might cave in an buy a different bike anyway, but I am now have a more rational set of expectations.

BluesDawg

Another couple of bikes to consider along the lines of those you mentioned, and Black Mountain Cycles Road. Both used mid-reach caliper brakes (47-57mm reach) allowing wider tires and/or fenders. They are conceptually similar to the 2009 Salsa Casseroll which is the most versatile bike I own.

MileHighMark

My Black Mountain Cycles frame will accommodate 28mm tires with fenders, and 33mm tires sans fenders. Rides like a dream, even on unpaved roads and trails.

mack_turtle

yup, that is me. I rarely ride with more than one companion. I am probably the idea Rivendell customer, minus the salary to afford their bikes. Hence my bike's presence somewhere in the "poor man's Rivendell" thread.) The more I think about this, the more I realize that I would rather have a very versatile bike, even a heavy one. I have big plans for some long road/trail rides for which a road bike would not be sufficient and a mountain bike might be cumbersome. so I will stick with the cyclocross-type bike. I work at a bicycle shop that has very limited access to many brands, so a new bike choice would be heavily based on what is available to me at a discount. The only thing that interests me at this point is the Raleigh Tamland 1.

My bike is actually fine but I need to convince myself of the superfluity or necessity of two things: disc brakes and brifters. those are the only two things I think would really help me. disc brakes for off-road and all-weather riding and brifters so that I can get a modern 10 speed drivetrain and get my hands away from the bar cons that never seem to shift right. I only have the barcons because they were 1/10 the price of some brifters. otherwise, I hate them. disc brakes would necessitate a new bike (or new frame, fork, wheels, calipers, etc) and the cost of upgrading to a modern drivetrain costs almost as much as a new bike sometimes.

the problem is that the alternative to disc brakes is v-brakes, and v-brake preclude the use of brifters. I have tried mini-v's and they don't provide clearance for fenders. regular v's cannot be used without a Travel Agent, and I the Travel Agent was prohibitively complex, not worth my time. I don't feel confident with my Tektro CR720's to ride any real off-road, plus those things stick out annoyingly wide. maybe I just need some better canti's.

analysis paralysis.

Andy_K 

What barcons do you have that shift poorly? I've got that type of shifter on two bikes (3x8 Shimano SL-BS64 and 2x10 Gevenalle) and they both shift wonderfully.

mack_turtle

I have Dura Ace 9-speed bar end shifters with a SLX Shadow medium cage RD, 11-32t Shimano cassette, Tiagra FD on Tiagra-level compact cranks. I replaced the 50t ring with a 46t CX ring. the RD is in good shape, so maybe the shifter is worn out. I need to check that my hanger is properly aligned. no amount of fiddling with cable tension gets the shifter to snap into the right gear consistently! nine speed on friction mode?

perhaps the DA barcon does not play nice with the SLX rear mech because it's a mountain RD. I was under the impression that Shimano 9 speed is Shimano 9 speed and that different cable pull ratios started with their 10 speed stuff (as in, you can't use 10 speed 105 with 10 speed XT). maybe I am wrong and I need a road 9 speed RD?

more than anything else, I just think the shifter is imprecise and it's a PITA to get from the hoods to the shifter at the end of my bars, which are FSA Omegas- which are nice and compact with lots of spacers under the stem on an already-tall head tube. I am going to try cutting a little more off the end of my handlebar to see if that helps.

I am thinking of going to SRAM Apex as an alternative but, even as an industry employee, brifters seem really expensive.

MileHighMark

Shimano road and mtb 9s bits are compatible. Shimano road 10s shifters can be used with a 9s mtb rear mech, but it's not as smooth/quiet as an all 9s or all 10s system.

I switched to SRAM this year, and can't see myself going back to Campy or Shimano (I am completely spoiled by the Yaw front mechs).

Kopsis

Do you hate them because of the ergonomics and the effort required to shift, or because they "never seem to shift right". The latter should be fixable. Barcons are pretty simple devices, so if they don't shift right you likely have a setup, cable, or drivetrain component problem. Or you're trying to use them indexed and you have a cable pull mismatch. If that's the case, just switch them to friction (indexing on barcons is really unnecessary IMHO).

Are you using the pads that came with the CR720s? If so, that's a big part of your problem. Those are quite possibly the worst brake pads I have ever used. Replace them with a set of Kool Stop salmon pads and I think you'll notice a big improvement.

The advantage of CR720s is that they're easy to set up because they're not very sensitive to setup changes. The disadvantage is that if you want to trade modulation for more power, you really can't. For power, a narrow profile canti set up with the straddle cable as low as you can get it is the ticket. Disks are certainly nice in foul weather, but I think I'd tune the existing setup a bit before buying a whole new bike just to get disk brakes.

However, if you really are set on running a modern 10-speed drivetrain, then buying a bike with that and disks probably makes much more sense than trying to upgrade what you have.

Andy_K 

If your SLX derailleur is a 9-speed (non-Dynasys) model it should work fine with those shifters. Since it's a shadow derailleur you obviously need an inline barrel adjuster somewhere because indexed shifting has very fine cable tension requirements. I'm guessing based on your mention of cable tension that you are using barrel adjusters (at the downtube cable stops probably, right?). Otherwise, it's most likely a problem with bad cable routing or friction in the system somewhere. You should be able to make that setup work very well (aside from the shifter location, which is a bit of a pain).

If you don't mind not being able to shift from the drops Gevenalle's CX-V levers would let you shift from the hoods and use full-sized V-brakes. You could even bolt on your existing shifters to save a few dollars if you can regain confidence in them. Plus the goats are very big on supporting local bike shops, so I would guess that you could get an industry discount if you have your shop manager give them a call.

I've got Gevenalle CX0-V levers (rebranded Tektro RL520's) on my singlespeed with Avid SD7 linear pull brakes and the braking is outstanding.

MileHighMark

If the OP wants 700x28 tires and fenders, long-reach (47-57) calipers will work just fine. There are several good brakes (Shimano, TRP, Velo-Orange) available that fit the bill, the trick is finding a frame that is spec'd for them (check Black Mountain, Kona, SOMA, and Surly).

I, personally, prefer dual-pivot calipers over cantilevers for tires under 35mm. Plenty of power, good modulation, and compatibility with basically any (integrated) lever on the market.

mack_turtle

For the sake of ergonomics, I am going to cut about 7/8" off the drops on my bars, which leaves just enough room inside the bar for the barcon wedge to fit, and go from there.


the is an adjuster bolted onto my down tube that has stepped adjustments that I fear are too big for nine speed indexing. Every time i adjust it, it goes too loose or too tight. I will have to work on that. Friction seems to work better, even with 9 speed.


i have a spare set of those Tektro v-drop levers around so maybe I will try some SD7's with those.

mack_turtle

I thought I had given up on a new bike, then I saw the Soma Double Cross disc. it's basically my bike but with BB7s and an Apex drivetrain. I think I could pull off the budget for it if I can sell the Pake. save me from upgraditis!

Andy_K 

Sounds like a nice upgrade to me -- sensible even. A Triple Cross would be a gratuitous upgrade (but really sweet).

Barrettscv 

I put 15000 miles on a Double Cross and really enjoyed the bike. It won't be significantly faster than the Pake, but it will provide a smooth spirited ride. It's one of the better steel Cyclocross frames on the market.