FBinNY 

Ignoring the specifics because I consider them a side show, Kontact has touched on something more important. Specifically how the internet has democratized knowledge.

It's becoming difficult to verify anything, or separate unreliable secondary sources from primary ones. Simply put, who can you trust, and what is truth anymore?

As we see more deep fake tech and artificial stupidity, we'll get a corollary of Gresham's Law, namely that bad info will drive out good.

Search rankings, and AI depend on popularity, (and payment) rather verifiable truth, so absent a discerning reader willing to think, misinformation, like entropy, will tend to the max.

Long before AI or the internet, the Romans had it right, Caveat Emptor.

BTW, I don't mean to start a debate on the subject, which more properly would belong in P&R, just remind everybody to consider the source.

veganbikes

You had an issue I gave you the ability to talk with the person behind the issue. You can do with it as you will.

Bike Gremlin

Case in point - and what seems to have started this whole "take your website down" (at least based on the public posts and private messages I've received) frenzy by the esteemed member:

How to mount square taper cranks

Relja

FBinNY 

Don't drag me into your controversy. You can't know what I may think, or which fire I might douse or toss fuel onto.

As I intimated, the internet is full of info, from sources encompassing the entire range from highly reliable to extremely dubious.

To use that informationly wisely, each reader has to consider the source, whether it's primary or secondary (or worse), its historic reliability, compare/contrast it with other info and a general understanding of the field, and draw his/her own conclusion.

FWIW based on my (since '67) years of experience I would NEVER use a heavy lube on these cranks. I do use something very thin, ie. 2% oil in kerosene, not as a lube, but to prevent water entry to dry crevices.

Bike Gremlin

That's not the point I was trying to make.

And I agree with your point.

My point is that different "authorities" don't always agree with each other.
So, I listed all the different opinions/recommendations by the known authorities I could find.
And, I explained what I think and why.

I suppose this is not the only place (on the Internet or "live") where someone talks badly about (or praises) my work.
But it's a place that I think is good and that I care about. So, I wanted to respond, with my point of view.

P.S.
I'm happy to see that it took less than 10 years of hard work to get my own thread on BikeForums.
That's great.

I do care about what other BF members think - even if I don't always agree (though, there is a difference between constructive criticism, and trolling).

Relja

Kontact 

Impolite or non-constructive criticism is not trolling. It is just criticism.

wheelreason

Wait, what, wrong information on the InterWeb? that can't be right...

Jeff Neese

Notice that no examples were provided, just a vague and general statement about "blaringly obvious falsehoods". Obvious attempt at trolling.

choddo

Sounds like he shared specific examles with the author who acknowledged and fixed them?

Kontact 

On the cassette spacing page it was claimed there were no 6 speed cassettes, that 6 speed is spaced the same as 7 speed, and that Dura Ace 6, 7 and 8 speed were spaced differently than all other 6, 7 and 8 speed.

You can confirm this on the Internet archive and then apologize to me, Jeff.


I didn't bother with specifics because the site is replete with these kind of errors that a super-savvy guy like you should be able to spot. Several other people have.

Bike Gremlin

Yes - he did share a few specifics that I fixed and wrote back confirming that I've fixed them (and thanked for the heads up).
The cassette spacing for example - the paragraph text was wrong.
Although the table chart in the article had the correct info - it's still potentially confusing and misleading, and needed to be fixed.

Note:
Some "mistakes" are made deliberately for pedagogical reasons, as in the ERD article.
Likewise, some "mistakes" are not really mistakes, just stuff that the esteemed member disagrees with.

Kontact seems to know a lot.
His "user interface" is what it is, but fortunately, I'm mature enough to not sweat it.
The flaws he caught were missed by me and all of my pro-mechanic friends, some mechanical engineers etc (talk about not seeing the forest for the trees).

Guys like Kontact have helped almost as much as the mechanical engineers (and a chemist) over the years, to keep my info correct and up-to-date.
Even if I paid money, no one would be that thorough!

Hell, my website's Q&A page directs readers to BikeForums because, among other things, there are folks to correct me if I make a mistake and give wrong advice.
And I don't mind the errors being noted and discussed in public.
I'm happy to get corrections and keep my info spot-on.

Pro and hobby mechanics (including myself) rely on the info on my site a lot (the serbocroatian version).
If corrections come with a few "wrinkles," I still use them (not tossing the baby with the bath-water is the American saying, or something like that).

P.S.
I had started the site when my wise friend Gox gave me space on his hosting account and suggested I publish my notes online, so others could use that too.
Structuring info and writing tutorials is what I do and enjoy.
But one in about thousand visitors are a bit "rough" so to speak - that's people, that's Internet, it is innevitable, like rain in November - you can't ride if you can't put up with that.

I don't plan to stop writing articles (and making videos), and I will make more mistakes surely.
That's no reason to "take my site down," but to correct (and learn when possible).
"Haters gonna hate" as they say, or as Lemmy says:


Relja Novović

Dan Burkhart 

You clearly have stayed on the high road throughout this exchange, and I for one applaud your efforts. The way you handle and respond to criticism is laudable.

grumpus

Kontact isn't a troll, he may seem to be an opinionated grumpy old bastard but so can I, that's why mechanics are often kept away from customers.

unterhausen

Why do freehubs wobble when they are freewheeling? Never quite understood that one.

Chuck M 

Why do Weebles wobble and not fall down?

fishboat

Ya..there's nothing wrong with honest criticism, but with due respect, you don't have to be a dick about it.

Relja has always seemed to make an honest effort at helping people out, both here on BF and on his website. Surely there's far more correct info than info with (potential) errors.

No one is born with all the perfect info in his head. We learn as we gain experience and do the best we can... How about joining the high road..celebrate what is correct and help fix the errors? Where things are objectively a matter of opinion..state that up front with supporting documentation..it is what it is.

Of course, there's always the option of creating your own website and showing the world how it's really done.

Kontact 

Sheldon Brown already did that, and no one thinks he did that by lifting posts off of forums or making stuff up.

Generally speaking, I think we do each other an enormous disservice when we post 'facts' that we have no direct experience with and are just parroting something we thought we heard once. Even on a forum, because search engines will find those posts for decades. And I am very vocal about that.

BikeGremilin.com takes that a step further and enshrines a lot of that misinformation as text, rather than the dialogue of a forum. The author isn't an industry professional like Sheldon was (or I am) or an engineer, he doesn't cite sources and presents facts, mistakes and opinions equally. And then goes out of his way to present theories about how information and opinions should be generated. I find the whole thing strikingly dishonest because this isn't how knowledge is found, it is more like how AI approximates information.

Some facts are completely without politics. Cog spacing or methods for stopping brake squeal are those kind of facts, and shouldn't be subject to some sort of democratic process. The moment I pointed out that a bunch of stuff was wrong on BikeGremlin.com, that shouldn't have caused those entries to change. That should have caused the author to research my assertions and challenge them against his own experience. And that isn't what happens.

mikeonbicycle

sites like Relja @Bike Gremlin and this site bike forum.net are a huge help to the world bike community,too many sites actually deliberately post false information,Relja has helped many folk around the world to fix a bike or to help buy a bike,he did that for many years out of his own pocket with zero adds,he also used to do one on one chats,he is actually a bike mechanic so he does know his stuff,without sites like bikegremlin and this bike forum the biking commutity would have no where else to turn to,not everyone around the world can afford to go see a bike mechanic,sheldons site was another decent site,Relja works hard and is a decent funloving guy,so for someone to put crap on him like that is disrespecting him,he has played a big part in the world bicycle comunity just like this site has,where would we be without these sites.we cant afford to loose any great bicycle sites cheers

Bike Gremlin

You've raised some very good questions in this thread, notably:

• About finding reliable information on the Internet.
  A few other members also raised questions about Google and SEO.
• And about the reliability of information on my website(s).

I discussed and briefly explained all that in the latest article:
Is BikeGremlin a reliable source of information?

Relja

choddo

I think Kontact’s concerns are rooted in the mixing of authoritative tone with certain “information” that has weak validity. I suspect a more opinion-oriented style of writing that leaves the reader clear there is the possibility of mistakes or alternative / better versions of the truth might rile him up less.


p.s. The ads do make it a bit of a nightmare to navigate on a phone. I like the site otherwise though.

Leisesturm

I think Kontact is very much put out that a lesser mortal than Saint Sheldon has dared present a comprehensive bike mechanic site to the world. Does it also irk him, I wonder, that John Allen has heavily edited Saint Sheldon's material and adds more and more of his own material to the archive every month? I'm not a fan, but I would never order him to cease and desist. He clearly has the blessing of the Sheldon Brown estate. Bike Gremlin is even more in the clear. If errors on a website were an indication it should be removed, would there be any Internet left? Not understanding at all the h8 being displayed.

wheelreason

I can't decide if I am more entertained by this thread or the Centurion fanboy one...

Jeff Neese

Except that many of his own posts contain so much nonsense and wrong information, it's laughable that he's pointing out anyone else's mistakes. He's not really a mechanic - he just plays one on the internet and some of his statements reveal that he probably doesn't actually work on bikes himself. He's on a lot of people's Ignore list.

Bike Gremlin

For what it's worth, as far as I can tell, Kontact seems to have a lot of knowledge and a lot of his posts offer correct information and good advice.
The what I'd call "user interface" is often quite "rough", but (for me) that doesn't diminish the value of the provided information, so he's not on my block or ignore list (i.e. if I see he provided a correct answer to a question, I needn't comment).

Having said that, it is also fair to note that if many members behaved similarly, I would probably not enjoy reading the forum.
But that's not the case, and with all its pros and cons, BikeForums is the best cycling-related forum in the world.

Relja

Kontact 

Geez, Jeff. You still are upset that I corrected you in that thread a few months ago about chain rub and front derailleurs? You didn't answer at the time: Have you ever worked on a bike with more than 7 speeds in back? Doesn't seem like it.

Maybe you could get a writing gig on BikeGremlin too.