That's it. I'm moving to Amsterdam!
02-21-19, 11:47 PM
#51
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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfPMhM3GuXw
If you get nearer to the weed and hookers it's more like this, with lots of tourists on rental bikes added who don't know the rules, the unwritten rules and often don't know how to ride either. Most 'coffeeshops' are for the tourists anyway, the Dutch smoke less pot than anybody else in the Western world. There's discussion about removing the window hookers too, it remains difficult to keep human traffickers from Eastern Europe out and it has become like a zoo due to overtourism. It used to be a nightlife area with lots of normal bars too, if you walked past the hookers on your way to the next bar you just wouldn't pay much attention and don't bother the girls as you're not interested in their services. With many tourists that decency isn't so obvious. When it comes to the dignity of the women and girls, it worse than it has been for 5 centuries. The whole area is suffering.
I think cycling in Amsterdam is fun, but it's not very cycling friendly, probably one the least cycling friendly places in the Netherlands. It's got a video game appeal to it because it's hectic but you can't just go anywhere as fast as you want like some shots of the infrastructure suggest.
Yes, there is already climate change that is dealt with. But if sealevel rises more than a meter it can get very complicated. If a levee (outsmarted the censor there) is raised it gets much wider too, and the space is also needed for the water coming downhill from Switzerland, Germany and France. And a lot of the North Sea defence relies on the dunes, which are manipulated and managed but are still mostly natural.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfPMhM3GuXw
If you get nearer to the weed and hookers it's more like this, with lots of tourists on rental bikes added who don't know the rules, the unwritten rules and often don't know how to ride either. Most 'coffeeshops' are for the tourists anyway, the Dutch smoke less pot than anybody else in the Western world. There's discussion about removing the window hookers too, it remains difficult to keep human traffickers from Eastern Europe out and it has become like a zoo due to overtourism. It used to be a nightlife area with lots of normal bars too, if you walked past the hookers on your way to the next bar you just wouldn't pay much attention and don't bother the girls as you're not interested in their services. With many tourists that decency isn't so obvious. When it comes to the dignity of the women and girls, it worse than it has been for 5 centuries. The whole area is suffering.
I think cycling in Amsterdam is fun, but it's not very cycling friendly, probably one the least cycling friendly places in the Netherlands. It's got a video game appeal to it because it's hectic but you can't just go anywhere as fast as you want like some shots of the infrastructure suggest.
Yes, there is already climate change that is dealt with. But if sealevel rises more than a meter it can get very complicated. If a levee (outsmarted the censor there) is raised it gets much wider too, and the space is also needed for the water coming downhill from Switzerland, Germany and France. And a lot of the North Sea defence relies on the dunes, which are manipulated and managed but are still mostly natural.
02-22-19, 10:09 AM
#52
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Well, I tried to learn Dutch in the time I was there and found the biggest problem, when people could understand my simple dutch, was that everyone replied in English. The pronunciation is a problem, I agree - I won't bore you with that old saw about how the Dutch spotted Germans in WW2, according to my ex wife's family, anyway.
The pronounciation is not really the issue as long as it's intelligable. Shaveningen is perfectly intelligable, there is no need to seperate the foreigners for prosecution anymore. Talking back in English or mixing in English words and expressions is no problem. But you've got to understand Dutch not to miss out on a lot and without beeing forced to speak Dutch it's very difficult to learn to understand it. In smaller communities it often works better because people will stop replying in English when asked and be more patient. In Amsterdam that's much more difficult.
You are probably right about Amsterdam, I spent more time in other cities, however, I agree about predictability - mentioned it myself - however, I think the problem is unfortunately general to tourism, in the short tours do nothing to help the tourist understand a people or its culture. It's also true that you can find English TV programmes easily. I also agree with a point made in another thread, that bicycle lanes are not always restricted to bicycles alone, and therefore that can create problems.
Anyway, presumably things are calmer in Groningen, compared to further south.
Anyway, presumably things are calmer in Groningen, compared to further south.
Tourism is great for governments of course, it's basically importing money that is made elsewhere. But in the end cities and other places are for the people who live there, one Venice is enough. So you've got to make sure you attract the right tourism in the right numbers. But a few years of the wrong city marketing will have a much longer lasting effect.
My personal relationship with Amsterdam is quite complicated, I moved back to Groningen after less than 3 years, but the grass is pretty green there. Especially for a metropole, a world city, what it is imo despite it's size, it's friendly, safe, clean and cohesive. Not anything like London for example.
02-22-19, 11:05 AM
#54
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The trap is in replying in English and lulling (no pun intented) the Anglophones into a false sense of comfort with not speaking the language of the land. After one or two years they wake up to the reality that without an understanding of the language the further understanding of the culture, that is expected, stops. Even more importantly, the Dutch aren't comfortable speaking English with other Dutch, because language is a lot more than just a tool for basic communication. So the Anglophone is restricted to mostly one on one conversations, and in groups is an outsider that is dragged in by switching to English, or drags people out by tending to one on one conversations. So often the progress to becoming part of groups and less superficial freinds stops to, and having no idea what's going on in the country and what's the talk of the day doesn't help either. That's not a punishment for not having learned Dutch, allthough there might be a judgement, it's the way it works with languages. I speak French but not good enough to fully understand a conversation between two French friends, that would take me at least another couple of months in France. Anglophones often don't fully understand the importance of native language because they have little experience with speaking a non native language. It often is a rude awakening, they suddenly feel an outsider, homesick and lonely while realizing they have wasted two years in which they could have learned Dutch.
The pronounciation is not really the issue as long as it's intelligable. Shaveningen is perfectly intelligable, there is no need to seperate the foreigners for prosecution anymore. Talking back in English or mixing in English words and expressions is no problem. But you've got to understand Dutch not to miss out on a lot and without beeing forced to speak Dutch it's very difficult to learn to understand it. In smaller communities it often works better because people will stop replying in English when asked and be more patient. In Amsterdam that's much more difficult.
The attitude in general is very different, I always have to laugh when foreigners describe Amsterdam as laid back, friendly and relaxed. It's a very lively city (in a comatose region) and bicycle traffic can be quite chaotic, but it's much more a cycling city with less cars, less buses, less cargo bikes, less scooters and not many complicated crossings. But for serious road cyling you have to use the city's excellent infrastructure to get out of town too. The few tourists seem to manage not beeing an ******* just fine and all the foreign students and academics get a decent enough hang of it after a few months. It happens that one or two end up cycling on the highway but they usually get escorted off by drivers surrounding them with their warning lights on.
Tourism is great for governments of course, it's basically importing money that is made elsewhere. But in the end cities and other places are for the people who live there, one Venice is enough. So you've got to make sure you attract the right tourism in the right numbers. But a few years of the wrong city marketing will have a much longer lasting effect.
My personal relationship with Amsterdam is quite complicated, I moved back to Groningen after less than 3 years, but the grass is pretty green there. Especially for a metropole, a world city, what it is imo despite it's size, it's friendly, safe, clean and cohesive. Not anything like London for example.
The pronounciation is not really the issue as long as it's intelligable. Shaveningen is perfectly intelligable, there is no need to seperate the foreigners for prosecution anymore. Talking back in English or mixing in English words and expressions is no problem. But you've got to understand Dutch not to miss out on a lot and without beeing forced to speak Dutch it's very difficult to learn to understand it. In smaller communities it often works better because people will stop replying in English when asked and be more patient. In Amsterdam that's much more difficult.
The attitude in general is very different, I always have to laugh when foreigners describe Amsterdam as laid back, friendly and relaxed. It's a very lively city (in a comatose region) and bicycle traffic can be quite chaotic, but it's much more a cycling city with less cars, less buses, less cargo bikes, less scooters and not many complicated crossings. But for serious road cyling you have to use the city's excellent infrastructure to get out of town too. The few tourists seem to manage not beeing an ******* just fine and all the foreign students and academics get a decent enough hang of it after a few months. It happens that one or two end up cycling on the highway but they usually get escorted off by drivers surrounding them with their warning lights on.
Tourism is great for governments of course, it's basically importing money that is made elsewhere. But in the end cities and other places are for the people who live there, one Venice is enough. So you've got to make sure you attract the right tourism in the right numbers. But a few years of the wrong city marketing will have a much longer lasting effect.
My personal relationship with Amsterdam is quite complicated, I moved back to Groningen after less than 3 years, but the grass is pretty green there. Especially for a metropole, a world city, what it is imo despite it's size, it's friendly, safe, clean and cohesive. Not anything like London for example.
02-23-19, 10:12 AM
#55
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Yes, but often you've got to read the body language to predict and be predictable yourself. The written rules are not always followed and there are quite a few unwritten ones. But even if you're very familiar with Dutch cycling and infrastructure, from the things that can make city cycling complicated Amsterdam got them all, got more of it and often at the same time.
Here in NYC, there are complex rules for pedestrian traffic, because it is so pedestrian-dense in many places. Most people are probably not conscious of them, but we know them anyway. I'm learning some advanced concepts such as signaling my turns with a slight twist of my body. People respond to it, and I'm pretty sure they're doing it unconsciously.
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02-23-19, 11:28 AM
#56
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I guess intellectually I knew that this sort of thing would be inevitable given the level of bike infrastructure. It also removes a huge amount of interest for me.
@chewybrian The Netherlands is the 31st most densely populated country in the world. (The USA is 191). For a country roughly the size of the State of Georgia, the Netherlands has more citizens than all but four US States. On average there are more than 13x as many people per square mile in the Netherlands than the US. That sort of tax base, in terms of taxpayers per square mile is why the Dutch can afford massive infrastructure projects like their bikeways. The tremendous density is also why bicycle transportation makes sense there. In a country that is only 260 mi corner to corner - the long way - and packed to the brim with people, you're never likely to be going very great distances. It is also a fairly flat country with mild weather, making cycling even more practical.
To be honest, the pics you've posted make me not want to live there. Not a single picture of a natural space, everything is developed. If you go, I hope you enjoy it but I'd feel trapped.
@chewybrian The Netherlands is the 31st most densely populated country in the world. (The USA is 191). For a country roughly the size of the State of Georgia, the Netherlands has more citizens than all but four US States. On average there are more than 13x as many people per square mile in the Netherlands than the US. That sort of tax base, in terms of taxpayers per square mile is why the Dutch can afford massive infrastructure projects like their bikeways. The tremendous density is also why bicycle transportation makes sense there. In a country that is only 260 mi corner to corner - the long way - and packed to the brim with people, you're never likely to be going very great distances. It is also a fairly flat country with mild weather, making cycling even more practical.
To be honest, the pics you've posted make me not want to live there. Not a single picture of a natural space, everything is developed. If you go, I hope you enjoy it but I'd feel trapped.
02-23-19, 05:38 PM
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Exceptions can be found in the practical use of bicycles for hauling military supplies (essentially as two wheeled wheelbarrows) for great distances during the wars of Indochina and the Japanese conquest of Singapore, but those exceptions aren't what I would describe as a reason to disparage the "practical" use of bicycles by the Dutch in the Netherlands.
02-23-19, 05:55 PM
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Very few people anywhere find cycling "practical for traveling very great distances", no matter what the size of the country, no matter what the terrain, no matter what the weather.
Exceptions can be found in the practical use of bicycles for hauling military supplies (essentially as two wheeled wheelbarrows) for great distances during the wars of Indochina and the Japanese conquest of Singapore, but those exceptions aren't what I would describe as a reason to disparage the "practical" use of bicycles by the Dutch in the Netherlands.
Exceptions can be found in the practical use of bicycles for hauling military supplies (essentially as two wheeled wheelbarrows) for great distances during the wars of Indochina and the Japanese conquest of Singapore, but those exceptions aren't what I would describe as a reason to disparage the "practical" use of bicycles by the Dutch in the Netherlands.
02-23-19, 06:00 PM
#59
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Very few people anywhere find cycling "practical for traveling very great distances", no matter what the size of the country, no matter what the terrain, no matter what the weather.
Exceptions can be found in the practical use of bicycles for hauling military supplies (essentially as two wheeled wheelbarrows) for great distances during the wars of Indochina and the Japanese conquest of Singapore, but those exceptions aren't what I would describe as a reason to disparage the "practical" use of bicycles by the Dutch in the Netherlands.
Exceptions can be found in the practical use of bicycles for hauling military supplies (essentially as two wheeled wheelbarrows) for great distances during the wars of Indochina and the Japanese conquest of Singapore, but those exceptions aren't what I would describe as a reason to disparage the "practical" use of bicycles by the Dutch in the Netherlands.
I'm not disparaging the Dutch and their use of bicycles. It is a great solution for their circumstances. Can you imagine those pics of bike parking if everyone had driven a car? There wouldn't be room for the parking lot! But, at the same time it's just tiring seeing them constantly held up as this utopia that the US should emulate when the truth is that their circumstances are vastly different than most of the US and their solutions are not practical here outside of our largest cities.
02-23-19, 08:35 PM
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You got my point backwards. Let me rephrase. In such a small and dense country as the Netherlands, one is likely to find their trips much shorter, thus making regular bike travel more practical. I agree that few people anywhere finds long bike trips on a regular basis to be very practical. However, in places like most of the US, those "too long for a bike" trips are much more the norm than the exception because of the very different size and population density of our country.
02-23-19, 09:14 PM
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I guess intellectually I knew that this sort of thing would be inevitable given the level of bike infrastructure. It also removes a huge amount of interest for me.
@chewybrian The Netherlands is the 31st most densely populated country in the world. (The USA is 191). For a country roughly the size of the State of Georgia, the Netherlands has more citizens than all but four US States. On average there are more than 13x as many people per square mile in the Netherlands than the US. That sort of tax base, in terms of taxpayers per square mile is why the Dutch can afford massive infrastructure projects like their bikeways. The tremendous density is also why bicycle transportation makes sense there. In a country that is only 260 mi corner to corner - the long way - and packed to the brim with people, you're never likely to be going very great distances. It is also a fairly flat country with mild weather, making cycling even more practical.
To be honest, the pics you've posted make me not want to live there. Not a single picture of a natural space, everything is developed. If you go, I hope you enjoy it but I'd feel trapped.
@chewybrian The Netherlands is the 31st most densely populated country in the world. (The USA is 191). For a country roughly the size of the State of Georgia, the Netherlands has more citizens than all but four US States. On average there are more than 13x as many people per square mile in the Netherlands than the US. That sort of tax base, in terms of taxpayers per square mile is why the Dutch can afford massive infrastructure projects like their bikeways. The tremendous density is also why bicycle transportation makes sense there. In a country that is only 260 mi corner to corner - the long way - and packed to the brim with people, you're never likely to be going very great distances. It is also a fairly flat country with mild weather, making cycling even more practical.
To be honest, the pics you've posted make me not want to live there. Not a single picture of a natural space, everything is developed. If you go, I hope you enjoy it but I'd feel trapped.
There are open roads from there into Belgium, Germany. And you don't have those kinds of bike ways. The roads are narrow. The drivers give you space, but it is different.
02-23-19, 10:13 PM
#63
Senior Member
Except we're not talking about the average cyclist/enthusiast going out for fun. We're talking about the average person riding to get to work or grocery shopping. Different math.
02-24-19, 12:19 AM
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There could be a tendency to get a distorted view of cycling "norms" by assuming that the posts from cycling enthusiasts, club riders and hobbyists on BF threads represent the "norms" of the average cyclist in the U.S. or anywhere else.
02-24-19, 07:22 AM
#66
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I am not sure what you are reading, but I am certainly not talking about that. Why are you arguing with me when we seem to be in agreement?
Last edited by Caliper; 02-24-19 at 07:22 AM. Reason: Spelling
02-24-19, 01:26 PM
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This has been a fascinating topic for me since I was a kid. I first visited Paris in 1981, and I had brought my bike. I was terrified to ride in traffic there. Eventually, I realized that there were unwritten rules there, and once I observed them, I would do fine. It's like every city -- and maybe every intersection -- has its own dance.
Here in NYC, there are complex rules for pedestrian traffic, because it is so pedestrian-dense in many places. Most people are probably not conscious of them, but we know them anyway. I'm learning some advanced concepts such as signaling my turns with a slight twist of my body. People respond to it, and I'm pretty sure they're doing it unconsciously.
Here in NYC, there are complex rules for pedestrian traffic, because it is so pedestrian-dense in many places. Most people are probably not conscious of them, but we know them anyway. I'm learning some advanced concepts such as signaling my turns with a slight twist of my body. People respond to it, and I'm pretty sure they're doing it unconsciously.
I believe in the Netherlands people react to leg movement more than anything and despite the number of other bikes, it's still the single speed coaster brake cycling that dictates the bodylanguage. People that are about to do something else than going on in a straight line ore anticipate on another one doing so will hold the crank horizontal to be ready to brake. I usually know who is about to make a turn before the hand is stuck out, which often isn't. If people want to cross a zebra I just stop pedaling for half a second, they know I've seen them often from the corner of their eyes and start walking and ride around their back. Unless it's a foreign visitor, who doesn't understand I just yielded and hesitates forcing me to make a full stop. I've also noticed that people who cross the street outside zebra's often misjudge my speed because I usually ride in 3rd gear on a 3-speed. Most people with gears use the same single speed ratio for city cycling I guess.
I guess intellectually I knew that this sort of thing would be inevitable given the level of bike infrastructure. It also removes a huge amount of interest for me.
@chewybrian The Netherlands is the 31st most densely populated country in the world. (The USA is 191). For a country roughly the size of the State of Georgia, the Netherlands has more citizens than all but four US States. On average there are more than 13x as many people per square mile in the Netherlands than the US. That sort of tax base, in terms of taxpayers per square mile is why the Dutch can afford massive infrastructure projects like their bikeways. The tremendous density is also why bicycle transportation makes sense there. In a country that is only 260 mi corner to corner - the long way - and packed to the brim with people, you're never likely to be going very great distances. It is also a fairly flat country with mild weather, making cycling even more practical.
To be honest, the pics you've posted make me not want to live there. Not a single picture of a natural space, everything is developed. If you go, I hope you enjoy it but I'd feel trapped.
@chewybrian The Netherlands is the 31st most densely populated country in the world. (The USA is 191). For a country roughly the size of the State of Georgia, the Netherlands has more citizens than all but four US States. On average there are more than 13x as many people per square mile in the Netherlands than the US. That sort of tax base, in terms of taxpayers per square mile is why the Dutch can afford massive infrastructure projects like their bikeways. The tremendous density is also why bicycle transportation makes sense there. In a country that is only 260 mi corner to corner - the long way - and packed to the brim with people, you're never likely to be going very great distances. It is also a fairly flat country with mild weather, making cycling even more practical.
To be honest, the pics you've posted make me not want to live there. Not a single picture of a natural space, everything is developed. If you go, I hope you enjoy it but I'd feel trapped.
02-25-19, 01:42 PM
#68
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I think you picture it wrong. It's actually more the size of maryland but less than 10% of the land is build on. The rest is farmland, nature or water. But it's all managed and every square meter has a designate purpose. I don't agree with the tax base argument, not just because cycling infrastructure is much cheaper than car infrastructure and distance is only a small part of the costs, but because the mobility allows people to make and spend more money. As you correctly mentioned, a city like Amsterdam wouldn't work with everybody driving, and it works because most people still got to move from A to B for economic activity, and tend to move to C and D too because they easily can, that's also important for the less economically relevant activity. The climate isn't very helpful either, it might be moderate on average but it rains as much as in England, it's very windy almost all year and it can get both pretty hot and cold with snow and ice. It's probably more that A, B, C and D usually aren't that far apart because of urban planning and the fact that where there's build it's build pretty close together. But that's in general what makes cities into cities so there are certainly possibilities in America to have something simular in some places, defenitely more than are currently used.
When I'm talking about tax base, I'm meaning that there are more people per square mile in the Netherlands to spread the infrastructure costs between. That makes it easier to build a more extensive infrastructure if people only have to pay a small amount more on their taxes. In the Netherlands, you have over 1000 people per square mile to spread the costs between where even in Maryland each person would have to pay 75% more in taxes to build the same distance of infrastructure. There is no way that a mile of bike path in Maryland is going to generate 75% more economic activity than the same mile in the Netherlands to help pay for the expense. It would probably generate less economic activity because in a less densely populated area you end up traveling further, which is why Americans tend to drive instead of bike and thus why bike infrastructure is less developed.
You and I have a very different definition of mild weather, you may not appreciate how moderate the weather in much of Western Europe is compared to the US. Take a look at a comparison here between Detroit (near me in Michigan), Baltimore, Maryland and Amsterdam: https://weatherspark.com/compare/y/5...re-and-Detroit
Basically, Michigan is hotter and more humid in the summer, colder in the winter, gets similar rainfall, and much more snowfall. Maryland isn't quite as cold in the winter, but by the end of April is already hotter than Amsterdam during the peak of summer plus gets more rain and humidity. The Netherlands have more wind, but not by all that much. To me and probably most American cyclists, the Netherlands looks picture perfect for year-round biking, especially if you are considering cycling for a commute and daily errands. Here in Michigan, when you talk to someone who isn't a dedicated cyclist, they usually think you are insane for even considering biking in 6 months of the year.
02-25-19, 06:32 PM
#69
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Just letting you all know. If you ride a bicycle you can ride a bicycle.
Even in Amsterdam, with alleged secret decoder ring required to understand the unwritten rules or you will die or kill someone.
BUT, if you rarely ride a bicycle (or even more silly, never ever a Segway) and you ride one for the first time in decades (or ever) in Amsterdam (or anywhere else) good luck to you.
People on bikes aren’t killing Amsterdam. People sleeping (Airbnb) are killing Amsterdam, and Venice, and Barcelona, and Boston, and....
(New York will be last, because masses of people.)
-mr. bill
Even in Amsterdam, with alleged secret decoder ring required to understand the unwritten rules or you will die or kill someone.
BUT, if you rarely ride a bicycle (or even more silly, never ever a Segway) and you ride one for the first time in decades (or ever) in Amsterdam (or anywhere else) good luck to you.
People on bikes aren’t killing Amsterdam. People sleeping (Airbnb) are killing Amsterdam, and Venice, and Barcelona, and Boston, and....
(New York will be last, because masses of people.)
-mr. bill
02-25-19, 07:22 PM
#70
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Having cycled there twice, saying Amsterdam is a cyclist's haven because of all the bikes and cycling lanes is like saying LA is a motorist's haven because of all the freeways. What you don't realize is when everyone is on bikes, you get jammed up traffic just like a road. Really, you get all the same traffic issues as car driving on a road in a busy city, you're just on a bike. Its a cool thing to see once in your life, but I'd much rather cycle in France instead of the Netherlands again. The infrastructure outside of Amsterdam is nice, but the scenery is flat and looksmore or less like Michigan.
02-25-19, 07:31 PM
#71
Full Member
I'm all about body language, little tilts of the head, I pickup on small signals people send out. I've been around horses most of my life, they always twitch an ear, tilt their head just ever so slightly. Some do it when they want to be scratched. Others right before they try stomping a hole in you. It's up for you to decide what is what.
We live in an area where about one person a square mile exist. I love the husle and the bustle of busy cities, for no longer than a week. Then I have to get back to our solotude.
02-26-19, 05:44 AM
#72
Banned
Too many tourists, so that the natural culture dies out.
Thankfully, some nicer cities have begun banning AirBnB, which is excellent.
I live in the most dense city in all of Europe. (an island of 9mi2 with about 300k people if the students are included).
I like it, but I like it because it's authentic and not always full of tourists like Barcelona/Venice/Amsterdam.
Thankfully, some nicer cities have begun banning AirBnB, which is excellent.
I live in the most dense city in all of Europe. (an island of 9mi2 with about 300k people if the students are included).
I like it, but I like it because it's authentic and not always full of tourists like Barcelona/Venice/Amsterdam.
02-26-19, 07:21 AM
#73
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If someone rents their home out, don't they have to go somewhere else for the time period it's rented?
Last edited by 308jerry; 02-26-19 at 07:32 AM.
02-26-19, 08:14 AM
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Weed and hookers? Amsterdam seems like a quite radical place. Maybe in my youth I might have enjoyed it, but Amster-DARN is probably more my speed these days.
02-26-19, 08:24 AM
#75
Banned
There is a possibility that short-term people don't contribute to the community nor do they respect the neighbours. I'm in the most densely packed city and I don't want a raging party so that someone can rent their place out. Also, some people have received mortgages to buy places solely for AirBnB usage, which is the worst possible outcome for anyone living near them (usually in a desirable place to live).