Gresp15C

I think that controlling a bike involves continuous micro-adjustments that almost seem random, to counteract for minor changes in terrain, as well as for our own tiny errors. This is happening whether we're following a straight, or curved, path. This makes it hard to describe and analyze what we're doing, whereas it's easier to describe the smoother, more gradual motion of a motorcycle.

But it's the same physics.

A possible difference is just training. A bicyclist learns by falling a few times, or making awkward stops, until they get it right. Most of us were trained in an ad hoc fashion, if at all. On the other hand, a motorcyclist is on a much heavier bike, and traveling at dangerous speeds, from the git-go. So, it's valuable to have more overt training because a misconception could be deadly.

On the other hand, e-bikes are a good example of what happens when beginners get onto heavier bikes with no training.

I've actually found that motorcycle videos are a good source of info for cycling, because many of them are professionally made, and the motions are more gradual and explicit.

john m flores 

Good discussion everyone! Some more info to ponder from Wikipedia:

​​​​​​"​Countersteering is used by single-track vehicle operators, such as cyclists and motorcyclists, to initiate a turn toward a given direction by momentarily steering counter to the desired direction ("steer left to turn right"). To negotiate a turn successfully, the combined center of mass of the rider and the single-track vehicle must first be leaned in the direction of the turn, and steering briefly in the opposite direction causes that lean.[1] The rider's action of countersteering is sometimes referred to as 'giving a steering command"'"

"Countersteering by weight shifting

With a sufficiently light bike (especially a bicycle), the rider can initiate a lean and turn without using the handlebars by shifting body weight, called counter lean by some authors.[8][24][25][26] Documented physical experimentation shows that on heavy bikes (many motorcycles) shifting body weight is less effective at initiating leans.[27]"

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Countersteering

GamblerGORD53

IF C S was true, then the mirror steering would HELP. Obviously it does nothing of the kind. LOL.
Try that with your car steering wheel. LOL See how far you get. Same nonsense.

HarryPotter69

A bicycle steers through a combination of design and rider actions:

• Turning the handlebars shifts the front wheel's direction.
• Leaning the body influences the bike's balance and turn.
• Gyroscopic effect stabilizes the bike's motion.
• Countersteering aids in initiating turns.
• Rear wheel follows the path of the front wheel.

blamester

I have never heard mention of how a bicycle stops turning. You certainly can't lean up. It has to be countersteering to stop the turn.
A little more than when initiating the turn because of the where the weight is and the speed lost from turning.
Countersteering to turn and countersteering to stop turning.
You can throw your weight but the handlebars must turn however small that is.
Motorcycles are different because of the weight and they can put down power and not risk pedal strike. Ride a motorcycle and pull the clutch in and keep it in going round a corner. You won't do it twice.
If you end up going to slow you can't stop turning.
Countersteering is the only way to turn a bike or motorcycle and get consistent safe results at anything above a crawl.
​​​​​​

indyfabz

That's bull.

seypat

Magic dust?

RB1-luvr

msu2001la

100%
Counter-steering is an intuitive (and necessary) part of staying upright on a bike and turning corners. This subtle movement is what initiates any direction change. Most people have no idea this is even happening, but you can't ride a bike without some level of counter steering, as proven by the video where the guy locks out steering in one direction and then can't turn in the other.

chaadster

The problem with this question is always the same: confusion because “countersteering” is a misnomer. It’s not about steering, it’s about weight transfer to achieve balance.

Bikes and motos can be turned without touching the handlebars, i.e. without steering. Sure it’s not fast or immediate turning, but still, they can be turned when ridden no-handed.

Cars are steered to turn until such a time as they are out of balance, i.e. grip is out of balance, like in a slide, at which point they are countersteered to regain balance and get both ends going in the same direction.

Bikes/motos can be turned without being steered because they’re small enough for the rider to effect weight transfer without using the handlebars. Cars cannot because they’re too big and heavy. Rally drivers use a technique called the “Scandanavian flick” to weight shift and unbalance a car to better use throttle to “steer” the car through a turn. And yes, countersteering is required.

So countersteering is really weight shifting, not steering. Anyone who has power-slid a bike/moto knows you have to countersteer to keep the bike upright. But to just turn a bike/moto, no steering is required at all if you’ve got the space and time.

tyrion

Steering enables the weight transfer. More specifically, steering moves the tire contact patches out from under the center of mass to cause the lean to enable change of direction.

Even riding no hands, even at slow speed, you're still moving the tire contact patches (i.e. steering) to enable the lean or get out of the lean.

(the only ones that avoid these physics are trials riders, who can use sorcery instead of physics to change direction)

PeteHski

When you ride no-handed, the counter steer is automatic. If you try riding a bike no-handed with a tight headset you will notice how much harder it is.

mconlonx

I.e. Magic.

downtube42

Much the same way you turn when running. Offsetting your COG by counter stepping (i e. stepping offset slightly opposite of the direction you want to turn), so you can change directions without becoming imbalanced. The sharper you want to turn, the bigger the offset.

We don't consciously know how to do this, but our brain does. We learned it around age 18 mos.

john m flores 

Interesting video. Has anyone tried building a no-steer bicycle like this?

chaadster

This underscores my point about semantics, or as Maelochs put it, “bikes don’t steer, riders do.” If the wheel turns on its own, “automatically,” without the rider giving input at the bars, it sure seems messy to call it steering, much less countersteering. It’s further confusing to recognize that there are times when we countersteer in cars exactly the same way we do on bikes/motos— i.e. in a slide to maintain vehicle attitude/balance— but then return to just plain “steering” in a car but a bicycle is always “countersteering.” So we never just steer a bike? To say we steer bikes/motos by countersteering seems to set up a logical problem to me.

I prefer to consider we steer bikes/motos by shifting our weight and turning the front wheel to maintain balance, and steer cars by turning the front wheels. Exceptional conditions, like slides, utilize special techniques, like countersteering.

PeteHski

Well yeah it's not conscious countersteering like what the moto guys talk about, where they consciously push on the bars to actively countersteer in a turn. On a bike it is something we just do naturally when initiating a turn. The video posted by @urbanknight demonstrates it perfectly.

GamblerGORD53

Counter steering a CAR?? LOL hahahaha
It's called keeping the front tires in the straight ahead DIRECTION you were going all along, swerving back end or not.
If you then think you are better off doing a 360 on the ice, then you turn the tires to lead the circle it's going. I did this one morning on the highway covered by frozen rain.

chaadster

You miss the point. Semantics refers to the meaning of a word; there is no confusion about the mechanism being described, just what it’s called.

PeteHski

Having read this and other similar threads on the subject, there is loads of confusion. I don’t actually know what your point is really, so yeah I guess I must have missed it.

chaadster

You can lead a horse to water...

PeteHski

Does anyone else get your point?

chaadster

Deep thoughts, there; if one doesn't understand, do any? Like the falling tree in unihabited woods, do my plaintive pleas also fall on deaf ears? Is all steering countersteering? Granted, I'm no Galileo...

john m flores 

98% of the time I'm not consciously countersteering the motorcycle.

pepperbelly

Most of the time I didn’t either. It helps at higher speeds in sharper turns.
I am not sure if it was the motircycle’s mass, the gyroscopic effect of the wheels, or both. Steering by leaning could be done just by leaning but not as sharply.