zeppinger

Hi all,

I am still in preparation mode for my cross Asia ride around this time next year. I have become pretty well set on a pair of Lone Peak panniers for their simplicity, price, and they are made in America to boot. Also I just happen to think they have that "classic" pannier look that I have always liked.

In-particular, I really like the p-400 here. Its a "Panel-Loading" panniers. https://www.thetouringstore.com/LONE%...ERS%20PAGE.htm

Its compeditor is the p-500 which is slightly bigger and is a "Top-Loading" pannier.
https://www.thetouringstore.com/LONE%...ERS%20PAGE.htm

I have always loved the look of the old cannonade Panel-Loading panniers. I have even tried to get some off of ebay a few times and failed.

My experience with rear panniers is only with my Top-Loading Transit Epic panniers. I hate those bags! Whatever it is you need is always at the bottom of the bag. Panel-Loading sounds like just the ticket but I am sure there must be some unforeseeable drawback right? I understand that I will lose the ability to "over-stuff" using the floating lid design but I am a really light packing and just going with a full set of four panniers is a bit overkill in my mind so I dont think that total volume will be a huge issue. I am also keen on the idea of attaching a dry bag for tent/sleeping bag to the top of the rear rack.

Soooooo long story short. Does anyone have direct experience with either the p-400 or p-500 bags for extended periods of time?

If not, can you compare and contrast experiences with Top-Loading vs. Panel-Loading panniers?

Also, I would love for someone to try and talk me out of Lone Peak panniers in general just to make sure that I am getting the bags!

Thanks a lot everyone in advance!

barturtle

While I have no direct experience with panel loading types, I just keep imagining a busted zipper that won't let me close up the bag and I'm screwed. It also doesn't seem like you'd really be able to get at the stuff at the bottom without either risking unzipping it while on the bike and everything dumping out, or taking it off the bike to open it up. But I may just be a bit paranoid.

I've always used organizer pouches. Zipper, drawstring, velcro. That allows me to sort through the bags and instead of looking for one small item, I'm looking for one particular colored pouch.

valygrl

I have the Lone Peak front paniers (P99) and toured for 2 months with someone who had the P500s. I have owned 2 sets of the C'dale bags and one full set of Arkel GT54/T28.

So, yeah, Lone Peak is a great bag. I haven't used either of the ones you are looking at personally, but I really like the 99's - good quality, decent attachment, light weight, durable. My friend liked the P500's well enough, but it was a noticeably longer process to get to stuff in them because of the top load / lid system.

They are better in material & durablity & zipper quality than than the C'dales, and less burly than the Arkels, but totally sufficient, and their very much lighter weight gives them a win in my book.

I did have one "busted" zipper - not busted, actually, but eaten by a rodent. I doubt it would have been any different on any other bag, he really wanted my bagels.

I used a Bob for a while, and didn't like how everything was in one big bag and the item you were looking for was always at the bottom. Also, I'm a huge fan of the side-loader, because you can get into your bag even if you have stuff loaded on top of the rack - not so easy or impossible with a top-loader.

All the bags you are talking about are not waterproof, and require a water proof system either inside or outside the bag - I use interior waterproof bags - some waterproof stuff sacks, some trash compactor bags.

If I was buying panniers again right now, I'd get the LP P400/P99 combo. I'll probably have to replace the c'dales someday, I stuffed them too full and am losing a seam at a zipper, and I'll get the 400's at that time, unless something new comes out.

Also, you found a great place to buy from, Wayne at TheTouringStore is a great guy, very knowledgeable and easy to work with. If you do go with Lone Peaks, make sure you tell him which size rack you have so he can include the correct hardware.

X-LinkedRider

I run with Trek Interchange panel loaders and Axiom Dump top loaders and basically what I have to say is you can fit a LOT more crap into the top loaders, however the panel's are WAY easier to organize and grab certain thinks. I have no experience with either of the bags you have supplied link to though.

prathmann

No direct experience with Lone Peak, but they do look well made and designed. But I do have experience with both panel- and top-loading panniers. 30+ years ago I bought Nashbar's (called Bike Warehouse back then) imitation of the Cannondale panel-load panniers. Unfortunately they didn't do a good job of imitating the high-quality materials of the original and after only three decades of use they started to fall apart. Not having learned my lesson, I then bought a set of their top-loading 'Waterproof' panniers.

I found that I prefer the panel-loading design. One big plus is that I can still easily look for things even if I've loaded bulky items on top of the rack where they'd totally block the top opening. In practice I find that I can open the side panel and search for items without anything falling out and only minimal rearrangement of the pannier contents. In contrast, with the top-opening style I frequently have to take out much of the contents before I can effectively search for the wanted item.

philso

check these out. they are very well made, and check out the price for the world tour set!
mec's in-house outdoor gear is every bit as good as makers such as arcteryx, mountain hardwear, black diamond, etc. and the prices are unbeatable.

i've had the waterproof set for about a dozen years. they are now closer to grey than black, due to ultraviolet exposure, but every bit as waterproof as ever.

i'm currently using the world tour. maybe 5 or 6 years with little to no dicernable wear. the main compartments are cavernous, the top compartments are floating, & plenty of other pockets for organizing. you will need waterproof covers. again, mec`s in-house pannier covers have never let me down yet.

both bags are great, but the the waterproof pair might be a little smaller than you'd like for a cross-asia trip.

i should mention that these panniers stay on my bike, which is also my daily commuter/ shopping bike, so they get quite a bit of use.

https://www.mec.ca/Products/product_d...=1262440774636

https://www.mec.ca/Products/product_d...=1262440774640

good luck on your tour

Doug64

It seems like the more zipper you have the harder it is to keep water out of your panniers. While neither panniers you mentioned are "waterproof", I suspect the top loader will be drier. FWIW-- One of the main reasons I switched to Ortlieb's was the fact that they keep things dry. I also try to organize both front and rear panniers so that I don't have to do much "searching". I'll take the small inconvenience of having to dig for things once in awhile to the hassle of using garbage bags (which you have to dig through anyway) or soggy contents. I also have not had real good luck with raincovers keeping things dry in pre-Ortlieb days.

zeppinger

Thanks everyone for all the good info so far.

I had not really considered the possibility of zipper failure but I will take that into consideration. Although, I have yet to ever have any zipper, on panniers or cloths, fail on me. I have had a number of plastic buckles like the ones on the top loaders break though.

As far as keeping things dry goes, I have noticed that almost everyone with Ortliebs need some sort of system of plastic garbage bags, grocery bags, or dry bags to organize their huge main compartments. If you are going to cover all of your stuff with plastic anyways then why pay the weight, price, and in my opinion, ugliness factors of Ortliebs?

So far I am still really liking the idea of the P-400 panel loaders unless anyone has any other disadvantages that I have yet to take into account? I really like the idea of being able to get at my gear in the pannier without having to remove everything that is on top of my rear rack, a major pain in the neck with my current top-loaders!

To the poster who owns the p-99's, do they have enough capacity? Since I am going with the smaller p-400 instead of the larger p-500 I was thinking that I would compensate with larger front panniers. Thoughts?

Thanks again!

valygrl

P-99s are just fine as front panniers, I've used them with my Cannondale rear panniers, I don't know the capacity of those.

The other front panniers I use are the Arkel T28's which I do like quite a bit. They are probably 30% larger, and have a very useful top pocket, as well as mesh on the outsides. They have a heavier material and zippers, and a very solid attachment system. I do like those as front panniers. In fact, I would prefer those if you're doing dirt roads, the attachment system is more solid than the P99's.

I don't recommend the Arkel GT54's, they are far too heavy and have too many overly specific pockets.

zeppinger

Can you elaborate a bit more on the attachment system? I will be off road a bit because of the bad roads in Cambodia. I was under the impression that the Loc-on System Lone Peak uses is very solid? How about getting them on and off? Easy/hard?

MichaelW

It looks as though the Lone Pine system uses a locking hook at the top but an elasticated hook at the bottom. Ortleib and Rixen and Kaul fittings use a solid plastic anti-sway catch at the bottom which doesnt require any fiddling about. R&K fittings are rock solid but attatch and remove in an instant.
Im not a great fan of panel-loading. There are times when you need to carry larger stuff, eg food and flap-top panniers can easily be overloaded. Zips are a point of failure.
When it comes to organising luggage, I generally reach a system after 3 days of touring where I know where everything is and have figured out the correct packing order. With a large main compartment and a large rear pocket, finding stuff isnt a problem.

valygrl

both use a hook at the bottom. the LP one is on an elastic, the Arkel one is on a nylon strap. The LP top hooks are small and plastic, and have a plastic clip that you lock onto the top bar of the rack. This is ok, but not that bomber, so on a dirt road it could jiggle off. Mine popped off once, but I think I hadn't clipped it.

The Arkel system that I have is the older one, so I won't bother to talk about it - their web site has a lot of pictures of the new ones - but the one I have is all metal clips, and there is just no way it could come off. Them may have improved it since them or unimproved it, i'm not sure.

sehsuan

hmm. you just reminded me of something that i read in my junior high school (for 13 year olds) days... if you get 1 liter's of marbles, and 1 liter's worth of marbles (or 1/2" steel bearings if you don't call them marbles in your country)... and mix both portions into a large container, you would not get 2 liters' volume worth of the mixture. kind of like trying to dissolve a large amount of sugar or salt into water - you just get a marginal increment in the volume taken up. i think there's a concept called "granularity" ( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Granularity ) which might apply to our discussion. the salt and water could represent all the random sized items we're cramming into a pannier...

while this analogy seems bad (i know, it's me...) consider the likelihood of using a pannier like lonepeaks (i use ortlieb backrollers, FYI...) it should take somewhat lesser volume to cram in multiple small ziploc bags into an ortlieb rather than fit a single package into a zip compartment and waste the extra space.

while i am starting to use my ortlieb backroller for my daily work commute WITHOUT my bike for waterproofing - i sure can't imagine getting a lone peak and NOT being able to guarantee my things will be bone dry - and fitting in my 12" sized work laptop. i belong to the category of people who would love to get things that are truly multipurpose - although i'd appreciate further organization abilities within my pannier - but hey, that depends on the programming that i have inside my head, wouldn't it? one more thing i like is that i can hitch up one of my ortlieb panniers as a backpack for sightseeing while guaranteeing that everything inside's all dry while i can't really imagine doing it with a lonepeak - not sure if that option even exists or not.

another caveat i might foresee is that in a zip-compartment scenario (no, i've never inspected nor studied a lonepeak before) is that there might be scenarios where the more fragile items have to be packed somewhere near the bottom of the entire pannier - all it takes is for me to be slightly forgetful before i squish the item(s) into a mess of goo.

p.s. i'm currently a B&B type of tourer, so please do take my points into your context

one more thing - i'm not sure if lonepeaks will allow you to add additional pannier hooks on top - i just added one more pair of clips to both my ortlieb backrollers so that:
1) the load is more spread out across 4 points instead of 2;
2) i don't need to constantly shift the hooks' position using allen keys when i'm using my ortlieb pannier carrying system (backpack adapter)
3) there's always some form of redundency in case any one snaps
4) anyone (airport crew, porters, myself?) lifting a heavy pannier by two sets of loops that attach to the clip releases will spread out the stress of the lifting over 4 points instead of 2...

one last thing - i will never need to face the hassle of cleaning off road dirt from between zipper safter a wet ride, as compared to rolltops, nor have the need to further add the cost for a set of rain covers to the purchase price of the lonepeaks by themselves. smooth fabrics (i chose the ortlieb classic PVC - i'm not a PVC fan but neither am i an anti-PVC activist) are much easier to wipe clean instead of cordura-like fabrics.

zeppinger

All great points and exactly the kinds of criticisms I was looking for!

I am not all corned about carrying capacity. When I crossed the US my biggest problem was weight and not capacity. I had more than enough room to carry all of my gear and then sum and thats with all of the cheap bulky gear that has since been upgraded for this trip. The Lone Peaks will have a few liters less space than the Transit Epics I used on that trip but overall not a big difference I feel. With that in mind I am not too afraid of covering the important stuff with plastic bags. Trash compactor bags take up virtually no space and are big enough to cover the entire main compartment using only one if I felt like it. The Lone Peak Panniers also weigh significantly less than Ortlieb's so thats another plus.

You seem to be a lot more concerned about waterproofing than me which is another valuable criticism. However, if I may add another point against the Ortliebs, their method of waterproofing can be spoiled rather easily as I saw happen to two of by riding partners. One of them took a small spill on his bike which, while he was just fine afterwards, eat a decent size whole in his expensive Ortliebs and completely ruining their waterproof advantage. My other friend stupidly left some small food items at the bottom of of of his bags in which a raccoon quickly ate through to get at. Now I know Ortliebs have a great rep for being tough, as do many panniers I might add, small holes and punctures virtually eliminate their most attractive feature. If a pair of Lone Peak or similiar cordura panniers receive a hole or puncture they can be stitched up with just about any fabric laying around and the plastic lining on the inside can be cheaply replaced. Ditto by the way for bunggi cord attachment systems but thats another argument. If you were really concerned about waterproofing and just didnt trust trash bags for whatever reason you could buy Ortlieb dry bags that fit into a standard pannier for a fraction of the price of a whole Ortlieb pannier!

Another problem I have with Ortlieb is their attachment system, though apparently very strong and such, is highly specialized and I am unlikely to find replacement parts in the third world if something were to go wrong. Several other brands like Lone Peak and Axiom use simpler systems that work well enough but are more easily field repaired.

I never use my panniers off of the bike for sight seeing. I have what is essentially a dry bag with shoulder straps that I carry with me. It looks a just like a normal backpack but it packs down small and I use it to keep my cloths dry in my panniers as an added bonus. I find it is much more comfortable than wearing a pannier slung over a shoulder all day. To each their own though. I'll try and find a link for the product but I bought it here in Korea so no promises.

I am not entirely sure I understand your argument about something getting squished at the bottom of the pack. Would it get stuck in the zipper? If anything the zippers would help because the whole pack could be opened up at once without unloading everything.

Good points were made earlier about the reliability of zippers vs. Top loading panniers. Very worthy of consideration I think. However, zippers are simple machines, I believe anyways, and the advantage of not having to unload everything and have lots of organization pockets with no real weight penalty seems a good trade off to me.

Being able to clean off the Ortliebs is also another advantage to PVC bags vs other fabrics. However, I kinda like the looks of a dirty bag so its, forgive the pun, a wash for me.

How much stuff do you guys in the Ortlieb camp carry that needs to be waterproofed? In general, the things I need to be dry at the end of the day are:
1: sleeping pad
2: sleeping bag
3: clothes
4: a few small electronics (Camera,ipod,ect.)

What else is there? My tent usually goes on the back rack in its own dry bag that I bought to replace the normal bag it came with. Sometimes I put my sleeping bag or pad on the top rack as well, also in dry bags. Cloths go in my dry bag/back pack. All the rest of the stuff can get as wet as it wants too i.e. cooking stove and pans, bike tools, spare parts, ect. I am guessing the difference is that other people carry more expensive electronics than me like laptops, GPS, and SLRs. Expensive stuff like that I can certainly understand being paranoid about.

Maybe I just dont ride in the rain as much as other? Most of my tours tend to be relatively open ended. Meaning, that if the weather is bad that day I just stay in the tent and read or otherwise take a rest day. In Asia where I will have access to cheap accommodations on a fairly regular basis I cant imagine riding all day in too terrible of weather for too many days in a row.

Let me know what you think about this line of reasoning, pretty different approaches to the same problems.

sehsuan

Buddy,
It just happens that I'm from Singapore - and for my maiden and subsequent short bike tours, I'd be likely to do it through Malaysia (Singapore's too small to cycletour!) and perhaps Thailand - but let me assure you that rain is one of the most treacherous bits of stuff you have to be able to take - just about a month ago or so, there was a really huge downpour that flooded amongst other cars, at least one Ferrari in a townhouse (I'm not too sure if the term is used correctly by me or not...)

And heck no, I do not intend to criticize. Just sharing my personal values system where I would rather spending more (yeah, I know Ortliebs are overpriced...) on things that are durable. Raccoons don't exist where I foresee where I'd be going, and factoring a spill I had while doing some personal errands which resulted in some abrasion in my Back Roller Classic... I think with adequate erring on the side of caution etc, I'll get through fine.

It's good to know you are prepared for rain - I have no idea how bad rain might get in Korea (ha, reminds me of the singer Rain!) but I've seen some crazy weather since I may be riding South East Asia more than you might be doing...

For zippers I'd at least make sure it's by YKK, if not I'd pass. By now you'd probably have an idea why I got myself a Tubus LOCC (yes, I got the ABUS U-Lock as well...) just to ensure my bike wouldn't be the one doing me an injustice... I'm not going for perfection on a ride - I'll just sharing what works for me. The only experience I've had so far is just last month with my girlfriend and 3 more friends on a short tour (230km over 3 days) with a continuous 4 to 5 hour downpour on Day 2. That alone was good enough to "test drive" for my future trips I have in mind for the future.

The world seems to work by a free economy, so if the Lone Peaks are your best bet, go for it. I sure hope I am getting a correct impression of you starting a thread just to solely solicit for a round of pertinent consideration factors instead of convincing yourself of a preconceived notion (which doesn't need to be done - it was decided already!).

Bekologist

unabashed, brief opinion:

70's era designed panniers of the panel loading and metal hooks style,

LAME.

kayakdiver

I prefer a top loading pannier for the same reason I prefer a top load backpack. If you put it in.... I don't worry about it falling off or falling out. At the end of the day it will be inside. This same idea applies to backpacking as well for me.

For me it's all about keeping it simple ............... and dry.

valygrl

Can you expand a little, I'm interested.

zeppinger

Ditto, I love the 70's touring machines! Maybe thats because I have never ridden one!

To all those who have contributed so far, thank you! I am not trying to com across as having already mad my decision but I am leaning towards the LPs and wanted to see if I could defend myself against the counter arguments from you guys so dont take offense. Keep it coming!

zeppinger

Oh one last piece of fodder for you all. A lot of people seem to think that Ortlieb is the pinnacle of pannier engineering, especially considering their price. I realize that they have a great rep and I am absolutely not bashing them. To the contrary they are in my consideration as well!

However, as a counter argument, a lot of folks have long considered Robert Beckman to be the best pannier's on the market along with a similar design from Bruce Gordon. Both are non water-proof, full zipper, lots of load stablilization straps type panniers. I was actually thinking that the LPs would be a sort of poor mans version of the Robert Beckmans. Though those use a much more complicated attachment system.

Check them out if you havent yet and let me know what yall think.
https://www.coinet.com/~beckman/

Here is technical info if your further interested:
https://www.coinet.com/~beckman/packframes.html

sehsuan

[QUOTE=zeppinger;10223276]
Check them out if you havent yet and let me know what yall think.
https://www.pornhub.com/view_video.ph...55d620a0c6c866

huh? a link to a porn site?

kayakdiver

one is about panniers and the other one really blows....

arctos

My Beckman Panniers are now over 25 years old. I use them on my BG RNR and Fat Chance Mountain Tandem for touring. The zippers, mounting hardware and cordura materials have demonstrated exceptionable durability with hard usage much of which has been off pavement in North and South America. I have lubricated the #10 YKK zippers with silicone once after 20 years. For the long haul they have also been inexpensive when amortized over the years of use.

NeilGunton

This really comes down to personal preference. If you like simplicity, light weight and intrinsic waterproofness, then you might prefer the Ortlieb Plus Roller panniers (the cordura Plus is lighter than the PVC Classic). If you prefer zippers, built-in compartmentalization and accessibility, and don't mind a little extra weight and complexity of design, or being required to use rain covers, then panel loading panniers may do fine for you. I've used both - I've got an older set of the Cannondales, but I've mainly used Ortlieb rollers for years, and recently I also obtained a set of the Arkel GT series panniers. My initial reaction to the Arkels has been that they are rather heavy, extremely well built, and surprisingly I find myself not really taking to the zippered compartments as much as I thought I might. Also, I am not all that impressed with their new Cam-Lock system on the hooks - the rotation of the cams seems to necessitate that the hooks be positioned some distance away from the vertical struts on the rack, otherwise they will interfere. I also find myself actually preferring the relative simplicity of the "100% waterproof" aspect of the Ortliebs - this despite my really agreeing with the sentiment in Arkel's article on waterproofness in panniers:

https://www.arkel-od.com/tips/waterproof.asp

I agree with everything they are saying here, but still I find myself preferring the simplicity of the Ortliebs. They are lighter, there are no zips to go wrong (not that those monster YKK zips on the Arkels are ever likely to go bad), and I find myself a little confused by all the different pockets and compartments. I like simple, and so I believe I'll probably be getting a bunch of silnylon stuff sacks for ordering stuff inside the Ortliebs. The silnylon stuffsacks have a number of benefits - they allow you to keep your stuff readily accessible, especially if you get different colored ones and/or label them with a marker, and they keep your stuff dry even if the bag becomes compromised, and they are very slippery, which makes them easy to slide in and out of the bag. And they are very lightweight too.

To me, it's very nice riding along and seeing a huge storm up ahead and knowing that all your stuff is 100%, completely and utterly waterproof. Some people don't mind, but I find it a bit of a hassle to have to stop and get off the bike to put on rain covers. On the other hand, rain covers do protect the panniers from dirt and mud.

A small (and probably completely irrelevant) aside: I have had shimmy problems on all my touring bikes, until the recent test ride I took on a Co-Motion Americano - and I did that ride with the Arkels, fully loaded. Now I am 99% sure that the bike didn't shimmy because it is built like a tank, but some tiny part of me wonders if there was something about the Ortliebs that contributed to my shimmy issue on those other bikes (the Ortlieb panniers were a common factor between all of them, up until now). I have seen some mention bag sway with the Ortliebs as contributing to shimmy, presumably due to the fact that they are basically just big drybags attached to a back plate, but this seems rather unlikely to me. I'm just holding it out as being possible. However if I get my new Americano and find that I get shimmy with the Ortliebs and not with the Arkels, well then Arkel it is!

We tend to make our intuitive decision first, and then focus on those aspects that support and agree with our position, and ignore (or discount as irrelevant) those aspects that disagree with us. It's natural and human nature. The truth is that either pannier system works well. I would be happy enough touring anywhere in the world with either my Arkels or the Ortliebs. My wife absolutely loves the Arkels, so they are hers (for now)! Me, I'll probably stick with my Ortliebs and be happy as a clam, unless they do turn out to actually be contributing to shimmy.

On the availability of spares for Ortliebs, well, spare hooks are very easy and lightweight to carry. You can also make sure you have spare bolts, and install a second set of top and bottom hooks if you want more stability and reliability. There are also patch kits for if the bags get torn or punctured. Puncturing or damaging these bags is really a very unusual occurrence, not something you see every day.

My approach is to plan for disaster, but not base major gear decisions solely on "what if" thinking - I look for stuff that will be good to use for the 99% of the time I'll be using it, and then just try to take whatever spares and tools make sense to be able to deal with those rare occasions when something does break down. Then I'm happy for 99% of the time and prepared for the 1%, rather than using something that is less convenient for 99% of the time, out of fear for that once-in-a-blue-moon occurrence.

Neil

NoReg

I have never owned Otliebs, but I have owned simple top loaders with compression straps that didn't wobble or shimmy at all. There are a lot of things that cause shimmy including stuff like death grips on the handle bars. Never owned a really tank like bike so I know that isn't necessary, though it seems like it would be a good thing. The worst case of shimmy I had was when I weighed everything out so the the balance was perfect in each bag. Went away as soon as I ate my right side lunch...