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Hypothetical Question About Rollers

Old 04-04-16, 06:48 AM
  #26  
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All this is massively intriguing insight gang. Thanks much for the cents/dollars worth of insights.
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Old 04-04-16, 06:51 AM
  #27  
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And upon reflection, I agree 100% with Quinn as I sort of pondered last year's 200s and yes, that ramp UP to the jump is the effort, especially at Rock Hill when you hit the rise in turn 3 and 4 before as you jump.
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Old 04-04-16, 11:15 AM
  #28  
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Originally Posted by SprintzNKiloz
And upon reflection, I agree 100% with Quinn as I sort of pondered last year's 200s and yes, that ramp UP to the jump is the effort, especially at Rock Hill when you hit the rise in turn 3 and 4 before as you jump.
I want to clear up something.

Yes, the ramp up to the timed portion of the flying 200M is very important. This is why I call the Flying 200M a 1-minute event as opposed to a 12-second event.

My point about gearing and cadences is that it is entirely possible to do the windup correctly and still be under or over-geared and miss doing the event was well as you could have.
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Old 04-04-16, 01:13 PM
  #29  
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1-minute seems a little long.
More like 25"
I look at my 5" and 25" watts to compare efforts.

Last edited by Quinn8it; 04-04-16 at 01:17 PM.
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Old 04-04-16, 01:43 PM
  #30  
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Originally Posted by Quinn8it
1-minute seems a little long.
More like 25"
I look at my 5" and 25" watts to compare efforts.
"1 minute effort" wasn't my original phrase. It was told to me by Jeff Hopkins (road pro, jr track world champ, pro coach). I'd imagine he said that because what you do at the beginning of the event (from the time you get pushed onto the track) can affect the outcome.
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Old 04-04-16, 01:53 PM
  #31  
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Yeh- you can definitely blow it if you don't know how to ride the fist 1.5 laps- especially on a steep track like LA
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Old 04-04-16, 03:58 PM
  #32  
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Originally Posted by Quinn8it
Yeh- you can definitely blow it if you don't know how to ride the fist 1.5 laps- especially on a steep track like LA
Yeah, I've done that before.

Also, it's possible to be over-geared and burn a lot of matches simply getting up to speed, then when it's time to jump, there's not much glycogen left.

The flying 200M is a very interesting event. I mean, it's really just a qualifier for the main event. While it's similar, it's somewhat different than the main event.

When qualifying times becoming so close together, I wonder if there is still a strong correlation between qualifying position and final placement in the event.
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Old 04-04-16, 04:13 PM
  #33  
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Because the F200 on a steep banked track like indoor tracks is essentially a hill climb in a big gear followed by an all out sprint, you need fitness to be able to climb the hill and have enough in reserve to punch out the F200. Pretty much everyone will do the F200 in a bigger gear than what they would normally use for say sprint races or scratch races. That means you're hill climbing in a bigger gear compared to what you would normally use (total opposite to a road climb), and that is a taxing effort, and then you have to follow it up with a full gas sprint.

The gearing comes down to experience. A gear too small will get your wind up done easier but your F200 will spin out and be slower. Too big and you punish yourself in the windup and leave not enough for a quality F200.
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Old 04-04-16, 04:16 PM
  #34  
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Don't forget about taking the proper line during the warmup. Climb too much in the first lap and you'll burn a match right there.
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Old 04-04-16, 05:15 PM
  #35  
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Originally Posted by carleton
Don't forget about taking the proper line during the warmup. Climb too much in the first lap and you'll burn a match right there.
Yep, studied and verified according to people better than I. The riders that use the least power in the windup are the fastest. Watch the fast guys and the lines they use, particularly in the windup and also the drop down to the F200. The rest, where to jump, how fast to go is all gear and rider dependent. Follow some really fast guys in their F200m efforts if they're happy to have you do so. That's a great training tool right there!
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Old 04-04-16, 08:53 PM
  #36  
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Originally Posted by Baby Puke
Thanks, Gycho77. Not going to T-Town this year, but I'd love to see a video of these rollers in action.
Please look at the green dot
https://youtu.be/FjvKhLYw8KE
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Old 04-05-16, 05:44 AM
  #37  
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Originally Posted by carleton

When qualifying times becoming so close together, I wonder if there is still a strong correlation between qualifying position and final placement in the event.
Oftentimes yes, though some more than others. Check out the Tissot timing page. It seems like pretty consistently the fastEST couple guys are consistently the highEST finishers in the tourney. On the local level, I think it happens because there's usually comparatively big gaps between racers. 11.6 is a lot different than 11.8, and 12.3 is a lot different than 12.7. Probably shows a difference in experience, too, I'd imagine.
At the elite level, things generally follow that path, too. Usually the top guy is the top guy, with that correlation be less farther down the list. (I seem to recall there being a mathematical reason for this, too. Something about if one guy has a big FAIL, then it mucks up everyone else in something close to a predictable fashion. Maybe there's a math whiz here who can explain?)
Take the recent WC in London, for example:

Name...... Q Time .... Final Placing..... Change from Q Placing
Glaetzer..... 9.766...... 1st........................ same
Kenny........ 9.767...... 2nd....................... same
Hoogerland. 9.767...... 9th....................... lost 6
Dmitriev..... 9.791...... 3rd....................... lost 1
Skinner...... 9.824...... 8th ....................... lost 3
Niederlag... 9.868...... 10th ...................... lost 4
Zielinski..... 9.876...... 4th......................... gain 3
Bauge........ 9.891...... 6th .........................gain 2
Webster..... 9.907...... 7th ....................... gain 2
Puerto-Zap. 9.927...... 5th ...................... gain 5
Dawkins..... 9.939...... 11th ..................... same

That said, the Hong Kong WC was crazy- I think the top 5 Qs finished 6-10, and the 5-10 Qs finished 1-5. And Aussie from WAAAYYY down the Q list (keep in mind that's still only .2sec down) won overall.

But yeah, there seems to be a pattern of the fastEST guys staying on top; certainly on the local level, and generally on the elite level.

-TC

Last edited by Trackliche; 04-05-16 at 05:48 AM.
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Old 04-05-16, 10:47 AM
  #38  
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So I messed around with riding straight to the rail versus a corkscrew approach to keep that metabolic burn low (with the corkscrew) and I'm not sure I ever saw a difference in resulting 200m times. Granted, the ride to the rail on the back straight was assisted by a BIG push from my holder. Watching world cup quals, I feel like even on steep tracks the bias is towards going straight to the rail. It's probably easier to pull off a ride to the rail at Major Taylor than say, Rock Hill or LA.
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Old 04-05-16, 12:53 PM
  #39  
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Originally Posted by SprintzNKiloz
So I messed around with riding straight to the rail versus a corkscrew approach to keep that metabolic burn low (with the corkscrew) and I'm not sure I ever saw a difference in resulting 200m times. Granted, the ride to the rail on the back straight was assisted by a BIG push from my holder. Watching world cup quals, I feel like even on steep tracks the bias is towards going straight to the rail. It's probably easier to pull off a ride to the rail at Major Taylor than say, Rock Hill or LA.
It's MUCH easier to go straight to the rail on a 333M than it is on a 250M. The biggest problem is the first turn that you have to climb into.

This is one area where a power meter can be helpful for sprinters. Evaluating how much torque they are using during the windup before the jump.

I had a buddy tell me that he once followed his coach during a full flying 200M. Both had power meters. The coach had less power spikes during the windup than the student and had a much better flying 200M thus illustrating Brawlo's point. I think they were on a 333M track.

This is sort of how/why I came up with my "Earl Henry Style"* flying 200M. I basically treat it like a rolling standing start for a Man1 effort. Why did I do this? In evaluating my splits from team sprint efforts, I noticed that my final 200M split from a standing lap was sometimes FASTER than my flying 200M. That was a clue that I was doing something seriously wrong.

At TTown, I experimented with casually riding around during my windup then performing a "rolling standing start" down the home straight and had a really good time. Like 0.5" faster than a proper flying 200M earlier in the session.

I'm not saying that the "rolling standing start" method is faster. What I am saying is that I was screwing up my proper windup to the tune of +0.5 seconds...or more


*Early Henry is a legend on the US Masters circuit. Old guy from "the islands" (not sure which ones, hahaha). He has several masters world championships. He does his flying 200m windup like at a snail's pace then lays down the hammer hard.

Last edited by carleton; 04-05-16 at 12:57 PM.
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Old 04-05-16, 01:43 PM
  #40  
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Speaking to what TC was saying above about the riders typically finishing the finals in the same order they qualified in....
I think it speaks to what a great seed event the 200m is..
I suspect that we tend to over analyze every little aspect of 200's from little changes in getting on the track, to when you jump, what gear we ride with lots of emphasis on a small change of 1-tooth on the ring- etc- etc
When really once you've gotten good at a 200m you find that you can ride them differently and in different gears and often get the same time.. We've got what we've got when it comes to speed and capacity.. Don't make any huge mistakes and you'll typically ride your current capacity
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Old 04-05-16, 01:45 PM
  #41  
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@carleton
I just call that the Regular way to do a 200m!!
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Old 04-05-16, 03:53 PM
  #42  
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I really think that local/club racers should practice their flying 200s. At DLV I rarely saw people practicing them. We only do sprints 1 night/month and I know fast people who literally only do a F200m that 1 day/month. Not even in training or even warmup that day. They all can be faster.
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Old 04-06-16, 11:54 AM
  #43  
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Well, the Major opens this Saturday and I'll likely have some F200s and rolling 500s scheduled. I'll let you know what I learn after a winter of squats and plyos and deadlifts. Also, it's expected to be 38 degrees, so we may not learn much of anything other than cold, dense air makes you slow.
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Old 04-06-16, 12:33 PM
  #44  
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"The Major"?
Is that Indy?
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Old 04-06-16, 05:23 PM
  #45  
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Originally Posted by SprintzNKiloz
Well, the Major opens this Saturday and I'll likely have some F200s and rolling 500s scheduled. I'll let you know what I learn after a winter of squats and plyos and deadlifts. Also, it's expected to be 38 degrees, so we may not learn much of anything other than cold, dense air makes you slow.
Let me help set some expectations:

- After a winter of heavy lifting and training, sprinters often hold super high hopes for the first track day. Don't expect to be blazing fast. If you are, great. If not, don't think your season is in the toilet.
- I can't recall anyone saying that they set a PB in 38 degree weather
- Your first flying 200 this season could be worst than your worst last season. It probably won't be faster than last season. Don't worry. That's normal.
- You'll be faster as the summer progresses.

You should look at the first track day as a casual meeting of friends and to shake down your bike for the season.
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Old 04-07-16, 06:04 AM
  #46  
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Originally Posted by Quinn8it
We've got what we've got when it comes to speed and capacity.. Don't make any huge mistakes and you'll typically ride your current capacity
Agreed! I've definitely gone through the over-analyze stage (I call it Carleton Mode) more than once, and have rarely seen much in the way of gains from it. Generally, my biggest gains come from focusing DURING the timed portion of the f200. If I focus on going 100% off the bank, focus on my line, and focus on keep pouring on the effort at all points, my times are generally pretty close, despite what happened the previous two laps.
That's with the exception of the actual jump point, of course. That's sorta part of the "line" of the effort, though, IMO.

-TC
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Old 04-07-16, 06:10 AM
  #47  
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Originally Posted by carleton
Let me help set some expectations:

- After a winter of heavy lifting and training, sprinters often hold super high hopes for the first track day. Don't expect to be blazing fast. If you are, great. If not, don't think your season is in the toilet.
- I can't recall anyone saying that they set a PB in 38 degree weather
- Your first flying 200 this season could be worst than your worst last season. It probably won't be faster than last season. Don't worry. That's normal.
- You'll be faster as the summer progresses.

You should look at the first track day as a casual meeting of friends and to shake down your bike for the season.
Agreed x2 for the day. It's so easy to forget the effects of weather, track time, and motivation. From a 38* first 200 of the year in April to a 80* race in June, one can easily expect .75-1.0 sec improvement.
I remember my second season: After having turned in several 12.0s in September of the previous year, I had trained hard in the gym and on rollers all winter. When I got out to the track for the first sprint night in March (40*), I was all excited to show off the work I'd put in. Unfortunately, my 13.2sec time didn't quite illuminate my prowess. I was devastated. . . right up until the local 11-second fast guys were setting 12.4s.
Eye opening.

-TC
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Old 04-07-16, 07:57 AM
  #48  
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Originally Posted by Quinn8it
"The Major"?
Is that Indy?
Yessir.
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Old 04-07-16, 08:00 AM
  #49  
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Yeah 38 degrees isn't record setting weather. That said, they've revised the forecast up to a sweltering 41.
I think my hopes are high mainly due to the strength gains I made in the offseason. I'm curious to see where I land on some of these efforts for sure
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Old 04-07-16, 01:36 PM
  #50  
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Originally Posted by SprintzNKiloz
Yeah 38 degrees isn't record setting weather. That said, they've revised the forecast up to a sweltering 41.
I think my hopes are high mainly due to the strength gains I made in the offseason. I'm curious to see where I land on some of these efforts for sure
Well, let us know how it goes. Good luck!
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