madpogue 

I was going to call this thread "Out of my brain on this Trek 515....", but that would be just a guess. Trying to unravel the mystery of this bike's identity. Bought it on CL about three weeks ago, and it's something of a franken-bike. I'm calling her Ruby.

* Color (red flake with silver flake panel / head tube) and panel design suggest it's an '82 or '83. If it's an '82, the catalog suggests it's a 515, or poss. 613.
* Frame is all Ishiwata 022, which doesn't match anything in this color scheme, either year
* Blue Line Derailleurs look original, and I know they put them on the '82 613.
* Helicomatic rear hub - from what I recall, they appeared on more '83s than '82s. 5-speed, but it's a 126mm axle.
* Here's where it gets weird -- rear rim is a 700C, can't make out the label, MAYBE it's a Rigida. Front is a Rigida 1320 27".
* And a little weirder - It's a Tom Isaac (60TSI on the BB), but the "serial number" doesn't have nearly enough numeric digits to make any sense of it
* Fork crown is def. the investment cast type, with the long lug tangs going down the inboard sides of the blades
* Oh, yeah, screw holes in the ends of the rear dropouts for wheelbase adjustment screws (I don't think any were ever installed).

A lot of "in-service" changes -
* Franken-crank - SR left arm, Shimano 600 (pre-EX, but not Arabesque) right arm / rings, some cartridge BB
* Shimano 600 brakes, Tektro aero levers with the interruptor levers (they're actually starting to grow on me)
* Cheap steel seatpost and beater seat, since swapped out. I'm guessing it originally had an SR LaPrade and an Avocet of some kind
* Rack is actually a Jim Blackburn SS-1 I've had in the basement forever, just waiting for an assignment like this

So just what is this thing? Here's what I've been able to piece together, but it still doesn't nail it down.
* This color in '82 would have been either a 613 (which was 531 main / Ishy stays) or a 510/515 (which was all 531). But the 613 wouldn't have had the contrasting silver headtube
* In '83, the 600 came in these colors, but again, 531.
* Only mention of 022 in either catalog was the '82 412, but that was a lower level bike, with hi-ten fork, etc.
* From the catalog pics, most of the '82s have the derailleur cables ABOVE the BB, and either clamp-on or brazed-on guides. You see more cables BELOW the BB in the '83 pics. This bike, the cables go below, but rather than the plastic guide thingy, there are grooves in the BB shell, and the serial number plate sorta kinda covers them. (Gotta find a replacement for that screw)

Sorry, these are the only pics so far. I'll shoot more in the near future. The Vintage-Trek site does mention that there were some "staff take-home" bikes seen around Madison back in the day, with no serial numbers. All this has is the 60TSI block, and then "0T60T" (or maybe that's an O) on the serial # panel on the BB shell. No other numbers down there, nothing on the dropouts, nothing at the bottom of the seat tube.

Ideas?

dedhed

I see 10910

dmark 

That does not look like a 19" frame; more like 23-24.

JohnDThompson 

Except a 1982 4nn level frame would not have that investment cast bottom bracket shell and fork crown.

I suspect it's a 1984-85 5nn level frame.

madpogue 

Talk about not enough coffee! Why didn't I see those as 1's :doh ? I guess the lack of a leading zero, and it's "left justified" in that orientation, threw me off....

Yeah, according to VT, 10910 would make it a 24" 410 (412 if built). But this doesn't look like a 24" frame to me, more like a 22.5". And def. it's a nicer bb shell and fork as mentioned It's not just the cast crown that's different; the blades are 022. The color scheme also doesn't match the catalog listing, but if I recall reading right, you could get other combos on a made-to-order bike. That might have also applied to the frame construction.

I don't think it's an '84 or later, as they went to the Tron / Miami Vice type graphics by then. And the SN wouldn't jive.

Hmm, the way it's oriented, could it be 10910x? That would make it an '83 770, 58 or 60cm, but again, it's not that big.

I'm leaning toward the 410/412, built to order, buyer-selected colors and frame construction upgrade.

Wow, thanks for the sanity check, y'all, it makes a lot more sense now.

SJX426 

@madpogue - I too would defer to John as he is a former employee @ Trek with frame building experience in that time period.

You could simply measure the ST to determine the correct size.

The Golden Boy 

Wildwood 

Except: Trek didn't do 'built to order' on anything but high-end frames, no 'buyer-selected colors', and no 'frame construction upgrades'.
There was no Project One back in the 80's.
Don't believe everything you think.

bargainguy

60TSI on the BB shell means Tim Isaac-designed according to the vintage-trek website. Would this have anything to do with an "upgrade" BB shell?

Some early and mid 80s bottom brackets were marked with 58TSI or 60TSI. In the early 1980s Tim S. Isaac designed new lugs and a new bottom bracket shell for Trek. The new bottom bracket shell is typically marked with 58TSI (or more rarely, 60TSI). This designation is not part of the serial number but is a model number of the shell. The TSI are Tim's initials. The 58 or 60 refer to the angle between the seattube and the downtube.

Hobbiano 

The '82 Trek brochure says the 515/ 510 was Ishiwata 021 and the geometry looks like a match with touring bike long chainstays. It came in that color. I think it's a "near" match to the '82 510/ 515.

stardognine

Good eye. With the Ishiwata 021 tubing, it's a step up from 022, and that fancy BB shell makes even more sense. 😎

beicster 

Did you check the dropouts? They used different brands on different models and that might be more definitive than paint. The under the bottom bracket cable routing definitely says either high end 82 or 83 and above. The stickers say no later than 83. Have you thought about it being a repaint? If it is, then the Trek decals and tubing stickers could be wrong.

BTW-I have that same fork on my 82 61x but it was not on all 61x's that year. Mine has the serial number that indicates it was contract built by someone outside of trek.

JohnDThompson 

But that investment cast bottom bracket shell wasn't in production until 1984. What does the dropout/stay/fork blade treatment look like? Domed or radiused? And what is the fork crown? Early production used an Ishiwata SCM crown with long tangs brazed on the inner aspect of the blades or a TREK-branded investment cast crown with shallow socket and short tangs cast into the crown. Later production used a Haden Europa crown with short tangs cast into the shell itself.

madpogue 

So the TSI mark means it's '84 or later? Maybe it is a repaint. Pretty nice job on the panels, if so.

I'll try to get photos in the next couple days, when I have better natural light. There are some pretty long (to my eye) tangs coming down the inboard aspects of the fork blades.

Oh, and then there's the under-the-BB der cabling. Does that narrow it down any?

The Golden Boy 

The repaint would explain a few things... Ishiwata 022 stickers where there wasn't an all 022 bike at the time the bike had that paint scheme, the investment cast BB which shouldn't be on that paint scheme...

JohnDThompson 

No, that cable routing was built into the bottom bracket shell itself.

madpogue 

Right, but what I meant was, does it help identify the bike's year/model? From what I see, and what I remember (I had an '82 613, bought new back in the day), the earlier bikes had derailleur cable routing above the BB. So does this routing help place the bike's year?

beicster 

I do love a good mystery bike thread. I hope the updates continue.

madpogue 

Sorry, a few, er, life events intervened. So..... more pics and more 411. Seat tube C-T is 22.5". I'm beginning to think it's a repaint. The "panel" is not a panel at all. The T R E K are separate letters (similar to how the '81s were lettered) on a metal-flake (glitter) silver background. I THINK the silver is painted, because the yellow stripes with "United States....", etc. is "above" both the red and the silver. If I recall, the '82s and '83s with this scheme had a single actual panel with the letters and yellow stripes printed on it.

Fork has the long tangs on the insides of the blades. The tangs even have openings in the middle. It has the TREK letters on the tops of the seat stays and the top of the BB shell.

So John D, does that provide any more clues? Do the pics of the lugwork, etc. shed any light? The other thing that entered my mind, esp. since the serial number is so far to the left (once you flip my upside-down pic over....), is that maybe the serial number is 10910x, and the last digit is covered by paint. That would make it an '83 770, according to the serial # info on VT. But I don't even know what that is.

Had to throw in a pic of the "HELICOMATIC" pie plate; the thing is pristine, not even yellowed.

Anyway, pics:

beicster 

John Thompson says that the bottom bracket shell was not available until 1984 and all of the frames went to fastback stays in 1985. According to vintage-trek.com, only the 720, 760,770, and 170 were fastback style in 1984 so it can't be one of those. It looks like it has barrel eyelets at the top of the seat stays in one of the first pictures you posted which only appeared on the 420 that year in combination with caliper brakes. The other tourers had cantilevers that year. But, the 420 had the Nikko bottom bracket shell just like my 84 500 so that is not likely it.

Also, I don't think the fork on yours matches the description of the 84 420 on the vintage-trek website. Of course, if you have decided it is a repaint, then it could easily be a replacement fork as well.

Edit to add-I just found an 83 700 in the gallery of the vintage trek website which has similar looking bottom bracket shell. Vintage Trek Gallery - Jim Jack's 1983 Model 700

madpogue 

So the mystery remains. I flaked off some more paint on the BB shell where the serial number is, and no numbers obscured by paint.. So it's just five digits, 10910. That would make it a 24" '82 410, which jives with it being 022. But that doesn't mesh with the derailleur cabling under the BB, which by all appearances didn't exist until '83. Nor does it explain the 60TSI BB shell.

I'm still having a blast with it, it's now a 12-speed thanks to the generosity of @jj1091 , who sent me a 6-speed Helico freewheel. (Shhh, don't tell anyone; I used a very light touch with a channel-lock on the lock ring....) Everything's got fresh lube now. I read elsewhere about how undersize the hub bearings are on that Helicomatic; no kidding! Oh well, that's part of its "provenance", so I'll ride on.

Just a head-scratcher wrt. how it was born. Like some old blues singer, nobody knows his real birth year....

shoota 

The serial number just indicates when it was stamped. It could have started being built in '82 and finished in '83 which would explain the differences in the BB shell, including retapping. Just a guess.

jPrichard10 

Sorry to resurrect an old thread, but this story is just too similar.

Person selling this bike says it's a 614. Contrasting headbadge and Ishiwata SCM fork crown seem to say otherwise.




Is this more likely a 710? The owner is reluctant to give me a serial number or meet up until I'm ready to put cash down.

​

Sedgemop 

Looks like an '83 600 to me.

jPrichard10 

​​​​​​Oh, didn't even consider the 83 models! That does have the contrasting headtube.

Did some of the 6xx series in 83 come with Ishiwata SCM fork crowns? I figured they would all have been shipped from Japan. My 640 has a Tange fork, definitely not a nice fork crown like this one.


Edited to add: the cable routing should have tipped me off. Either way, not a 614, but effectively the same in the 6xx line. Just got lucky with a nicer fork maybe.