Thrift & Frugality - a quality or a meanness?
#101
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The rise of post-war industrialisation was the complete antithesis of frugality and thrift. It was pursuit of ever-increasing yields and outputs, at the expense of sustainability or long-term view.
I fear future generations will look back in horror at some of the developments; but that might be a good thing and encourage a larger degree of thrift, or at least to be more frugal in the consumption/use of resources.
I fear future generations will look back in horror at some of the developments; but that might be a good thing and encourage a larger degree of thrift, or at least to be more frugal in the consumption/use of resources.
#102
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Like you don't want to argue? You are completely missing the point. By your own admission, this trend of fewer hours at higher pay ended decades ago. You note that the benefits of productivity gains were split between labor and capital, but that relationship ended decades ago. Productivity rises at this point are being tied to increased automation which really doesn't bode well for the value of labor over time. You're using one period in history to bolster your argument that a decrease in demand for goods won't increase unemployment, and that period was never one of decreased demands for goods except for one period when unemployment skyrocketed.
If we really want to get into it, the post-war boom in the US was such a combination of once in history occurrences that pointing to it as precedent seems rather silly.
I suspect the real economizing we're seeing among consumers is their decisions to have fewer kids. Choosing a cheaper bike rather pales in significance when compared to that.
If we really want to get into it, the post-war boom in the US was such a combination of once in history occurrences that pointing to it as precedent seems rather silly.
I suspect the real economizing we're seeing among consumers is their decisions to have fewer kids. Choosing a cheaper bike rather pales in significance when compared to that.
I have better things to do today.
#103
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I could demonstrate that much of this is faulty – logically in some cases, empirically in others – but many of us on bf have been down this rabbit hole with you. Once you choose a position, you are no longer open to any other facts or viewpoints.
I have better things to do today.
I have better things to do today.
Hey pot, you're a kettle!
Not really interested in the argument with you as your reaction to anyone questioning your assumptions is to lash out like this, but here's my basic point:
You are grossly understating how much societal restructuring you would need to allow any substantial drop in demand not to cause a rise in unemployment. You tried to cite an era in history when that most decidedly didn't happen while ignoring the actual trends that did occur both during and after the historical era YOU selected. You want to get into various structural reasons why the average consumer really doesn't have the flexibility to cut demand you're assuming, I'll be happy to, but it's a hell of a lot more complex than B- econ 101 level stuff. There's the whole housing market, family size, who is in and who is out of the labor market and so on.
When you post stuff like " a B- student in an introductory econ course can understand this", you are trolling for a fight while making it clear you aren't open to anything another person has to say, so I'm really not taking your characterizations of me seriously.
#104
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I don't want to set you off, but this is fallacious 'logic.' At least, the conclusion that this would be a 'bad' outcome does not logically follow. At all.
If everyone consumed less, we wouldn't need as many jobs and/or people with jobs wouldn't need to work as many hours. That's the logical consequence of people spending less: they don't need as much income and the economy is not called upon to produce as much stuff. .
If everyone consumed less, we wouldn't need as many jobs and/or people with jobs wouldn't need to work as many hours. That's the logical consequence of people spending less: they don't need as much income and the economy is not called upon to produce as much stuff. .
Folks ... let's all go ride our bikes.
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#105
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Oh ... and LiveDarkLions? The Great depression (which was one in a long string going back for pretty much as long as humans have been able to count money and write history) did not have a single cause ... one could argue the First World War, the onerous reparation demands put on Germany by the Versailles Treaty, the loss of labor in France .... one could argue about leveraged stock purchases and vastly over-valued companies and the folly of get-rich-quick, pyramid-style investment schemes ... and a bunch of other stuff ... but no can ever win that argument because there is always more to say.
Claiming you know the One Cause of the Great Depression .... I will just back away slowly and not take my eyes off you until I am out of range.
Anyone with three linked neurons can see that most "modern" societies massively overproduce and try to stimulate massive over-consumption (It's Disposable! That Means it is Convenient, right? It comes in single-use packaging! You have no responsibility for the wasteland you children are about to inherit---Because We Are Freaking Rich due to your unrestrained buying, often on credit, which we make easy, because when has That ever not worked out well (see above.)) For the purpose of short-term gain for a limited pool of profit-takers. The only people who don't see it like we see the sun in the sky during the day, are the people who take those profits who don;'t need to see it because they are doing it, and the people at the lowest levels who are little better than serfs, supporting their masters.
I don't have any solutions, but I also don't deny the existence of what is plainly observable. I cannot cure cancer or most other diseases either, but I don't pretend they don't exist because of that.
As with so many other problems ... get out from behind the computer and climb into the saddle. The world won't change but you will.
Later, I have a few miles to consume.
Claiming you know the One Cause of the Great Depression .... I will just back away slowly and not take my eyes off you until I am out of range.
Anyone with three linked neurons can see that most "modern" societies massively overproduce and try to stimulate massive over-consumption (It's Disposable! That Means it is Convenient, right? It comes in single-use packaging! You have no responsibility for the wasteland you children are about to inherit---Because We Are Freaking Rich due to your unrestrained buying, often on credit, which we make easy, because when has That ever not worked out well (see above.)) For the purpose of short-term gain for a limited pool of profit-takers. The only people who don't see it like we see the sun in the sky during the day, are the people who take those profits who don;'t need to see it because they are doing it, and the people at the lowest levels who are little better than serfs, supporting their masters.
I don't have any solutions, but I also don't deny the existence of what is plainly observable. I cannot cure cancer or most other diseases either, but I don't pretend they don't exist because of that.
As with so many other problems ... get out from behind the computer and climb into the saddle. The world won't change but you will.
Later, I have a few miles to consume.
#106
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As for thrift and frugality, yes and no. I will spend big bucks on something (bike) which will deliver good value over the long haul but will cheap out on jerseys and bike accessories *Garmin excepted). If I was wealthy, I would probably just do the same. Helmets, shoes, tires, bibs I spend on. Safety and comfort are paramount.
Being both thrifty and non-thrifty and I don’t see it as meanness, unless you lord it over someone. The names were changed to protect theguilty innocent.
Being both thrifty and non-thrifty and I don’t see it as meanness, unless you lord it over someone. The names were changed to protect the
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#107
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As for thrift and frugality, yes and no. I will spend big bucks on something (bike) which will deliver good value over the long haul but will cheap out on jerseys and bike accessories *Garmin excepted). If I was wealthy, I would probably just do the same. Helmets, shoes, tires, bibs I spend on. Safety and comfort are paramount.
Being both thrifty and non-thrifty and I don’t see it as meanness, unless you lord it over someone. The names were changed to protect theguilty innocent.
Being both thrifty and non-thrifty and I don’t see it as meanness, unless you lord it over someone. The names were changed to protect the
By the way, a really great jersey is...really great. I hope you've tried a couple before choosing to cheap out on them.
#108
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The rise of post-war industrialisation was the complete antithesis of frugality and thrift. It was pursuit of ever-increasing yields and outputs, at the expense of sustainability or long-term view.
I fear future generations will look back in horror at some of the developments; but that might be a good thing and encourage a larger degree of thrift, or at least to be more frugal in the consumption/use of resources.
I fear future generations will look back in horror at some of the developments; but that might be a good thing and encourage a larger degree of thrift, or at least to be more frugal in the consumption/use of resources.
There's a whole lot of cultural and psychological stuff all tied up together here. First, although the average work week did shorten considerably between the 19th and mid-20th Centuries, we seem kind of stuck at 40 hours as the generally accepted amount of time one should work every week. It's been that way since 1940. Eighty three years. Anytime there's a suggestion to shorten it, it dies a quiet death somewhere, even though it's an obvious solution to excessive unemployment (U3 and U6).
Second, there's the generally accepted belief that if you CAN work, you SHOULD work. Related to that is the tendency to define yourself in terms of your job - I'm a Scientist who rides a bike, versus a cyclist who does Science to pay the bills. So for a lot of people, especially men, losing a job is losing part of how you define yourself.
Third, we tied so many things to employment, like health insurance and retirement.
Fourth, and let's not kid ourselves here - stuff is fun. I mean, we all own bikes. Some of us own multiple bikes (Guilty, your honor!), and tools for working on them, spare tires, spare wheels, and specialized clothing for riding them (I have more pairs of bib shorts than I have long trousers, for example). Wanting more and better stuff is part of being human, IMO. Humans are the dissatisfied animal. There's something in us that isn't satisfied with what we have, or who we are, or how we do things, and tries to change it. Frugality, making do, doing without runs counter to that - not that it's not a good idea, but it tends to run counter to how we're wired, meaning that frugality takes willpower that profligacy doesn't.
Fifth, there's a tendency to rebel against being asked to share, or to cut back, or to make changes for the greater good. Some go so far as to do the exact opposite of what's asked, in order to prove something.
So, we've set up our society to require everyone who can to work, to consider working longer hours to be a sign of virtue, to consider more money and more stuff to be a worthy reward, and to look upon "excessive" leisure time, or "underemployment" as sloth, a sign of moral turpitude, and asking people to live like we're all in this together is anathema to a big chunk of society. That's the system we'll have to change.
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"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
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"Everybody's gotta be somewhere." - Eccles
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#109
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Hello, I introduce you to: https://www.bikeforums.net/politics-religion/ Please make a note of it.
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#114
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This thread really has got me thinking.
I wonder if it would be possible to equip a keyboard with a breathalizer?
I wonder if it would be possible to equip a keyboard with a breathalizer?
#115
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“There has got to be”. No there doesn’t. I completely reject everything you claim.