blueline

I get very mixed feelings when I hear (or read about) someone expressing such blatent intolerance. On the one hand, I am most certainly not a flag waving, flag wearing, wear it on your sleeve, in your face patriot. I certainly support the freedoms that this country enjoys and have been paid for in blood since the Revolution, including the right to express yourself by burning the flag. Did you know that burning the flag is actually the proper way to dispose of a desecrated (e.g. dropped in the dirt) flag?

On the other hand, at the recent St. Patrick's Day parade, one Republican candidate for local political office was driving in the parade with a car carring U.S. flags all over it. One of the flags fell off and landed in the road. People in the parade walked all around it, many carried and waved flags of their own, but nobody bothered to pick it up. I waited until the parade traffic had cleared, then went out to the road and picked it up and gave it to my son. I later explained to him that the flag should never be allowed to touch the ground. I also pointed out to him that as late as the Civil War, keeping the flag flying (i.e. off the ground) was a point of honor, for both sides, often paid for with one's life.

I think moving to another country of one's choosing is, nevertheless, a fine idea. Probably an experience that every American should experience at least once. We lived in Japan for four years. It is very edifying to view your country's behavior through another country's perspective. I think it would make for better Americans and a better America.

zapper

No offense but I think it depends where you are...There are a lot of liberals in CA so it doesn't surprise me. Come out my way and you won't find much of that...We even do the national anthem at little league and it commands everyones attention. But obviously, you can't make em do it... Guess, that is an example of the freedom we all enjoy.....

zapper

I agree with all of what you have stated here.. I have been to many countries and I can say that in most of the european countries, we were not treated very well...The UK was quite different and loved my time there!!! Also, had a blast in Nova Scotia! Yes, it edifying to view your country's behavior abroad...Yet, it doesn't change my persepective... But, that is the freedom we enjoy in THIS country...We don't have to agree and yet we can share different perspectives from within THIS country without ever leaving...

However, I have certain beliefs...#1. I don't feel I have to appologize for waiving, displaying or wearing my flag..especially since I am in the military. I voluntarily put my life on the line like many others, we earned this right. #2. I think it is hypocritical to wear a flag on a jersey so you won't get run over and at the same time criticize those who display flags on their vehicles and lump everyone in the same basket, call them rednecks or whatever.. Isn't that the same thing? #3. what sparked my original rant is the silly notion that being critical of the Pres. but in the same breath say, I support our troops...In my humble opinion you can't do that..As a someone in the military when I hear people say that, it makes my blood boil. Not to mention how if affects our troops, believe me, it does! Look at the hostilities over in Iraq right now. They didn't start spiraling so quickly until the Dems started grandstanding on this 9/11 commission and public support started to sway. Now they think they have us on the ropes and they will not quit as easy now...But, the general population just don't get it...they think they do, but they really don't! Anyway, I'm sorry I even saw this thread....It is taken me away from my cycling....

caloso

Okay, maybe this belongs in the "Phrases That Anger Me Thread," but I have to respond to this. Yes, there are a lot of liberals here in California. I happen to be one. And I happen to embrace the label, notwithstanding the long campaign of right wing nuts to make "liberal" a perjorative. Would you like to live in a country that denies the franchise to half the adult population, that makes its darker citizens pee in separate urinals, that encourages corporations to form monopolies and dump toxins in the rivers? (Never mind that last one, if you voted for W, you probably do.)

I love my country deeply and so does everyone of my liberal friends and family. That's why we volunteer, serve on local governments, join the military and the Peace Corps, donate our training to strengthen democracies around the world. I know that conservatives love their country too. But it seems to me that many of them love their country like a three year old loves his mommy, and no one can say anything critical of Mommy.

On the other hand, I love my country like an adult. I want it to do well and to do good. I want it to be well-respected within the community of nations, the community that we ought to lead by example. When I see our country represented by a cabal that wasn't legitimately elected, that squandered the good-will of the entire globe, that sends young people to die in a war based on pretext, that hasn't any sort of strategy for getting out of that war, that attacks freedom in the name of freedom, then I'm mightily disappointed.

Not because I hate America but because I love it. And because I love it, I'll proudly criticize our leaders when I think they're representing it poorly. That's the most American thing you can do.

caloso

Don't think it's a silly notion at all. I know quite a few folks in the military and they generally signed up out of a sense of service to their country. They're good people, I'm sure you are too. But I've got no respect for their commander in chief. And it continually surprises me that military folks have any at all for him. Just baffles me.

shokhead

If these people are liberals,90% of them that are doing this dont speak english.

blueline

Many probably confuse respect for the office vs. respect for the office holder. Although I wonder how many felt the same way when the previous President was in office. I guess they weren't confused then.
One should respect the President, and the Commander-In-Chief, in tribute to the office. That is separate from one's opinion of the individual holding office, or of that individual's competancy for that office.

I'll agree with zapper on at least one thing, this thread has strayed far from the original point and is getting very political. I have very strong political views, but am trying to keep them out of the bike forums. At this point, I too am leaving this thread...

khuon

Maybe one of the mods can move this thread to the Politics and Religion forum. I admit I too am guilty for helping forward the political angle of this thread but I'll not post anything more on that until the thread is moved... and even then I'm not sure I will continue to participate. I wonder if there is a way to split an existing thread so that once it has strayed outside the boundaries and has established itself in a new light, we could simply move all posts beyond a certain point into a new thread.

caloso

You're right. Mostly my fault it seems. I thought this thread had been split into the Politics forum and I thought I was replying to that. Apologies to the Forum.

shokhead

The end.

digger

Question for you Blueline. When visiting or say living in another country and you display your home country flag plus the flag of the country you are living in, isn't it considered rude or in poor taste to display your home country flag over the host country?

For example, in my neck o' the woods here in Nova Scotia we have many Americans that have summer homes. SOME, not all, display the American flag over the Canadian. Shouldn't it be the other way around? Out of respect I mean.

Every time my wife sees this she gives a little grunt of.....disapproval.

Anyhow, here's MY Canada Jersey:

shokhead

If i'm in another country, i'm most likly affraid to display the american flag but not in Canada,i'd put both out even if the goverment hates us. LOL

K6-III

Now, where do I get that awesome jersey?

digger

Ya gotta do the Tour Du Canada. 55 days 7500km (or so).

Actually, I don' think you HAVE to....but here's the link. https://www.cyclecanada.com/Jersey.htm

Digger

blueline

Once more into the breach...

Not quite. It is totally inappropriate to fly two national flags from the same halyard, one over the other, regardless of whether the flags are flying within one of the nation's borders or not. It is also disrepectful to fly a nation's ensign at night, or in the rain, unless lit, etc. Many people who make such faux pas probably do them out of ignorance, in a misguided attempt to show respect. So, yes, your wife is quite right to grunt her disapproval at this improper flag etiqutte. The ensigns should not, however, be reversed. Piloting, Seamanship and Small Boat Handling by Chapman is one source of information regarding Flag Etiquette, both on land and sea.

I don't have a problem with Americans in Canada flying the U.S. flag from their flagpole, and not flying the Canadian flag. Neither do I have a problem with Canadians in the U.S. flying the Canadian flag from their flagpole.

If you wish to fly two national flags, either you should use two flag poles of equal height, or a flag pole equipped with a yard, allowing the national flags to be flown from both the left and right halyards. A different flag (not a nation's ensign) may be flown from the center halyard, as under these conditions, the center halyard is not the position of honor. I suppose you could also fly one flag from a vertical flag pole and another from a gaff pole attached to the house.

Perhaps I beat the deceased horse a bit much?

digger

Hmmm, its all new too me.

Don't get me wrong, fly any flag you wish, none of my concern. I was wondering about ettiquette wrt flying one nations flag in another country.

blueline

I think I answered that. Since I was writing on the subject, I decided to add a bit more. Although, I am not sure why you directed your original post to me.

shokhead

If you can burn a flag,i think 2 from the same pole wouldnt upset very many.

blueline

Again, with respect to flag burning, one should not confuse supporting the rights of one's non-violent self expression, with approving of the expression itself.

"I disapprove of what you say, but I will defend to the death your right to say it." Attributed to Voltaire in S.G. Tallentyre, The Friends of Voltaire (1907), p.199.

In the case of flying two flags, one over the other, this is a breach of etiquette and, intentional or otherwise, is disrespectful to one at least one, if not both nations.

caloso

Dead on, Blueline.

Chris L

Better still, just ride with no flags. It is, after all, just a piece of fabric, regardless of the symbolism that some might attach to it. Personally I think I'm supporting my country enough through the taxes I pay -- especially as I don't get a say in how that money is spent. If that isn't loyalty, then nothing is.

zonatandem

Many of those American flag draped cars are not made in the US . . . and that includes Fords and Chevies made outside of the USA.
Perhaps they feel driving an SUV is the patriot thing to do? Of course they'll complain at the gas pump of how 'unpatriotic' it is to raise the price of Iranian/Saudi oil/gas!
Pedal on!

digger

Yup you did and you seemed to know yer stuff. Sorry I asked.