Flounce

I ride brevets. It seems to me that randos / ultra distance riders fall into different camps.

Based on the advice been hearing, I have been looking into 650b, wide tires, steel, more upright. You may have seen some of my questions on this forum.

Then I see (on the internet) long distance riders with bikes like these:

https://roadcyclinguk.com/gear/trans...ult-bikes.html

Paris-Brest-Paris ? the Gear | Team PHenomenal Hope


Carbon frame, Di2, aero bars, deep dish wheels, tires 28mm or less, 50/34 crankset and 11-28 cassette on short cage derailleur, etc.

Granted, these riders are used to long distance racing and not randonneuring, which I understand are very different endeavors. Races are often supported, brevets are unsupported. I also understand that PBP doesn't allow aero bars, though most other brevets allow them.

Do you think these riders suffer significantly more discomfort (neck, back, vibration etc) in order to squeeze out more performance with their bikes?

I'm thinking that if they can gain sufficient comfort to ride these super long distances, then why shouldn't I be able to do the same? I like to enjoy the scenery when riding brevets, but ultimately I want to go faster, even if I am not racing per se.

Why not have a bike fitter fit me on a carbon endurance bike e.g. Domane or Roubaix with aero bars running 28mm or 32mm tires and whatever proprietary mini fenders that are allowed, keep weight low, and train to ride in a more aero, faster, position?

Guidance please. Thank you.

pdlamb

Since you start with the premise that you ride brevets, what kind of bicycle do most of the randonneurs in your area ride? There's probably a reason for what you see; it works for most of the riders in your area.

Wheel size is it's own topic. Several of the riders I know who bought a 650b bike went back to riding their older bikes after a season or a part of a season. That's all I know about that topic, so I'll let others with more direct experience on the topic address it further.

There's usually 2-5 riders on the brevets I've ridden that are on sportier bikes than the average, and then there's me bringing up the rear. The faster riders usually ride the sportier bikes (sometimes even carbon) with the biggest drop from saddle to bars. The "average" riders pull the bars up a couple inches, and then the slowpoke has my bars roughly even with the saddle.

It seems that the people who are in the best shape can tolerate the posture and the bike that's closest to racing -- aero posture, close gears, etc. Those of us towards the back of the pack need a more upright posture, wider gears, etc. My back can't stand a good aero tuck for more than a few minutes on flat ground, and I don't have the power or stamina to keep pushing tall gears up moderate (let alone steep!) hills.

Where are you in the pack when you're riding a brevet? If you're toward the back, are you willing to commit to a training regime that will move you up in the pack if it buys you all the benefits of a "faster" bike?

Spoonrobot 

A lot of the differences between the types of bikes ridden for randonneuring and ultra distance riding are down to fashion or imitation of the top-tier riders.

When I went from a 700c racing bike running 25mm tires on a stiff aero wheelset to a 650b randonneuring bike running 42mm tires and significantly less stiff wheels I noticed only a small improvement in overall body comfort when riding on the road. Roads around here are just not that rough that the wider tires make a big difference WRT to speed lost for comfort gained. But I also race gravel races and going from a 35mm tire to a 50mm tire was a huge improvement in comfort in my hands, neck, shoulders and so on. So if you have exceptionally rough roads or plan to do a lot of mixed surface riding a wider tire would be an bigger improvement in body comfort.

FWIW, I went back to 700c wheels with narrower (32mm) tires after about 16 months/9,000 miles on a 650bx42mm wheel/tire combo. I've noticed no additional discomfort. It is entirely possible this could be a bigger issue for some riders, just not for me.

There's no reason not to. What do the randonneurs around you ride? If it's anything like here, they just ride regular racing/road bikes. Sometimes with wider tires and fenders but usually not.

You may find the BQ euipment survery from the 2008 PBP interesting. https://postrestant.co.uk/wp-content/...quipsurvey.pdf

From what I understand modern fat-tired 650b steel bikes for randonneuring have mainly been an American phenomenon, specifically around the pacific northwest. I haven't seen any representation in the ultra-racing community as the tires are noticeably slower and would not be competitive.

OneIsAllYouNeed

Get (professionally) fit for the sort of riding you want to do. The fit is not (even a little bit) about the bike. It's about you.

Most people's rando/ultra/century bikes are an evolution based on their needs, desires, and budget. They only people riding unmodified bikes are on fully custom bikes based on all the modifications they made to previous ones.

If I was shopping for a new budgetless ultra racing bike, I'd start with tires, then rims, then fenders, then brakes, then the rest of the kit. I'd want tires that support my load optimally at 60-70psi: 28mm front/ 30mm rear. Then I'd pick aero rims to match those: Zipp 303 Disc or ENVE SES 4.5 AR. Those limit the bike to disc brakes and 700c wheels... so at least I've narrowed down the selection. I'd then look for frames that'd fit those wheels, fenders, and have my stack, reach,trail, and front center measurements.

unterhausen

randonneuring is not so different from racing -- particularly a race like TABR. On 1200k's I like to ride in the drops, for example. Lots of randonneurs never do, but then again, pro racers aren't in the drops that often either

A lot of the riders on TABR have bikepacking bikes, which can accommodate bigger tires

fietsbob

Don't do the fancy events. But I did Commute behind a Zzipper Fairing ,, It was aero, by shape

So I did not have to bend over like a Quadruped, but instead sat more upright behind it..

Carbonfiberboy 

IME going faster means less distress. The shorter your riding time, the more rest you get and the less likely you are to have an issue after dark on the shorter brevets. I'm a 12-13 hour finisher on STP, which is certainly not a brevet. Nonetheless, hanging out at the finish line party, the riders coming in after me look progressively worse as time passes. It's a kilojoules per unit distance, not a kilojoules per unit time issue. The less work you do, the happier you are at the finish, plus the same for the shorter your saddle time. Plus the fewer hours in the dark, the happier and the faster and thus even happier.

At 71, I don't rando anymore though I still do long rides, just not as long. But mid-60s I randoed with a carbon bike running deep alu rims, 23mm tires, slammed stem, aerobars, and a 52-42-30 triple with a 12-25 cassette. I got under 8 hours for a 200 and 15 hours for a 400. Wouldn't it be nice to finish that early? Or get 6 hours sleep a night on PBP? The 90 hour folks I know who suffered the most on PBP suffered from lack of sleep/rest.

Carbonfiberboy 

On the 650-700 issue, I've many times seen or been the giver of tubes and tires to those without. That's also a big issue with small females who ride 650c bikes. A serious tire/tube problem is a DNF. So if the vast majority in your club runs 650, fine. Otherwise, 700.

I remember a couple years ago, I was riding a winter century with the rando club and came up on a guy on a hill who must have read every rando thread on BF because he was kitted out in all fancy black gear, custom black steel bike, low trail fork, huge front bag plus rear bag, big tires, trad rims, and a bunch of bottles. I went on after yelling at him for climbing in the middle of the road. But that's what can happen. OTOH I also know a local rando who is very, very fast and crews for his friends on RAAM and other ultras and rides some ultras himself. He has a beautiful steel rando bike with a big front bag. But he's really fast and always finishes with the leaders. Sort of a Jan Heine kind of rider, but much, much nicer. Last time I saw him on a ride, he was riding the latest hot carbon race bike with deep carbon wheels. Whatever.

I should mention that whatever won or did really well at Paris-Roubaix will be seen at the next year's brevet season but usually minus the carbon rims and tubbies. Demands are about the same.

unterhausen

the assumption that fat 650b tires are slower just doesn't seem to die. There is a wide range of rolling resistance with any size tire, but the best 650b tires roll pretty well as shown by extensive testing. I'm self-sufficient with tires and tubes on my 700c bikes. I would also be self-sufficient if I started riding 650b. One of the people that set the record on "Crush the Commonwealth" last year rides 650b. Riding across Pennsylvania in under 27 hours is a pretty good feat.

Riding fast is mostly a function of fitness and a reliable bike. For the 200k last week, I missed the fast crew at the start. They must have really taken off. I have gotten tired of taking so long on randonnees, so I worked really hard on the trainer this winter. Going to have to work to be ready to go at the start of the 300k. I have to say that it was a better back when I did the 300k in 14-ish and the 400 in 20 hours than taking the full complement of time. That was when I treated it more like a race. Although I still enjoy it when I take the full time.

Spoonrobot 

It's not an assumption, fat 650b is just slower than narrower 700c on regular paved road riding.

But your post wasn't clear, when you switched to fat 650b did you notice an improvement in speed or was it just the same speed but more comfort?

I switched exclusively from 700cx25 to 650bx42 and noticed a decrease in speed but a lot of overlap. The main measurable speed decrease was on long, flat and smooth sections of pavement. We have the rail-trail silver comet down here and riding 650bx42 was a slog. Rollers and climbing had a lot more overlap.

But really I recommend trying out different wheel and tire sizes. Fat 650b brings a lot to the party and speed is not always the best main consideration when picking what to ride.

downtube42

On brevets I've seen a broken steel frame (seat tube at bottom of seat post), broken CF seatpost, detached crankarm insert x2 (CF crankarms), broken handlebar (aluminum, mine), broken der. hanger, and one tire bead failure. Half of those resulted in DNFs, the other half finished (including the broken frame). I've seen many people DNF due to physical issues that can be traced to fit issues.

From my experiences, I take a couple things:
- Broken stuff is slow, no matter the material or weight
- Bad fit is bad

Ideally you could try all the options and determine what works best for you, but that's probably not in your budget. If you can afford to work with a fitter, I'd recommend getting a fit on your current bike, ride it on enough brevets to ensure it's good, then buy whatever frame material, wheel size, tire width, etc. that suits your fancy, as long as it can accommodate your dimensions. But save the uber light stuff for short rides, unless you have a team car following.

StephenH

Don't overthink things. If you showed up for a brevet, and 80 people were out there on tricycles, you'd assume you needed a tricycle, and could probably write up a nice article proving why that was the ideal ride for the event.


Here's photos of the bikes used on a 600k on a ride several years ago, for what it's worth: 600kRandoBikes Slideshow by stephenhazelton | Photobucket
Style of bikes varies regionally, and around here, fenders, wide tires, and big front boxes are not too popular.


You'll find people that are just positive that anybody on an upright bike is riding in misery, or that anyone who is not professionally fitted must be in pain, etc. But the fact is that people are different, what works for one doesn't work so well for another.

Flounce

Thanks, all. That is helpful.

njkayaker

It doesn't matter too much. But note that people can be successful in spite of the bicycle they use (success by itself doesn't prove the bike is "suitable"). That is, you probably want to consider something not too weird.

Basically, you want the right balance of "reliable", "easy to fix", "comfortable for long rides", and "fast". And what bike that satisfies this is going to be different for different people (who might weight the factors differently).

One can get away with a bike that doesn't have the right balance for short rides (a bike that is uncomfortable might not be a problem for a 20 mile ride).

While the equipment contribution to "fast" tends to be small, an improvement of even 5% is very valuable on a long ride (it's nearly 5 hours for a 96h ride).

Being able to use the drops frequently might make you 5% faster and that's an equipment upgrade that is "free" for most people (and probably has the largest effect on speed).

Things like fenders make riding in the wet more comfortable.

While you don't have to be a "fast" rider on a "fast" bike, you don't want to be too slow either. Having a pace that is significantly better than the minimum requirement is "time in the bank" available for dealing with problems (or even sleeping some).

unterhausen

I remember you rode a 300k, have you ridden anything longer? I'm curious what shortcomings you find in your current bike that would make you want to buy another. If you have a bike that works for you now, I would suggest riding it more until you have a better idea of why you would make a change.

Flounce

I haven't ridden anything further than a 300km yet. I trained for a 400km and but DNF'd at 150 miles due to cracking sounds from my carbon steerer tube - had installed new stem and was worried I overtorqued.

What's lacking from my current bike ? mainly wider tires - i'm getting a little beat up on these 23mm tires. All my gear is in my front bag and steering is heavy; low trail would make steering more normal. Dynamo hub would be nice and obviate any further battery management concerns. I haven't gotten to the point where I need lower gearing, but I'm sure I will, currently on 50/34 rings and 11-28 cassette, I'm not a strong rider.

Spoonrobot 

What are you carrying in your front bag?

I was having the same issue and was really considering spending $250-$1250 on a new low-trail fork/frame but instead I tried out a frame bag and have been really happy with it so far. I keep about 4-6 pounds of food and tools/tubes in the frame bag, anything light like extra clothes go on the rack up front. Handling is pretty much unaffected with only 2-3 pounds on the fork compared to the 6-9 I had up there before. I could probably go to just a frame bag but I like the option of a lightweight front rack.

I'm using a revelate tangle but there are dozens of other options.

I'll also rep for 46/34 and 11-32 or 11-34. Works great and I miss nothing about the larger gearing.

steve-in-kville 

Amusing, but so true! This could be applied to a lot of things in life.

Flounce

Spoonrobot - thanks that is helpful, will consider a frame bag. Does the frame bag not interfere with the two water bottle mounts, i.e. getting bottles in and out?

I carry carb powder supplement in ziploc baggies; gloves and layers to shed for cold nights / warm days; small multitool; spaceblanket; sunscreen, backup batteries for mapreading headlight and other gear; etc. Probably same stuff you carry.

To the others, I enjoy analyzing - call it overthinking - things to see how I can optimize my ride. Seeing what other randos ride gives me ideas I want to explore. I don't blindly parrot whatever others are doing, hence my question to you all, given how helpful your answers generally are. Fact is that I spend a lot of time riding and this hobby has been much cheaper than my last hobby (sports cars, where dropping $1500 every other month on carbon fiber side skirts, a set of tires, or other junk, became a habit). I have to admit that I am itching to spend more money but have shown remarkable self-control thus far

StephenH

FYI- some of the same bikes as the time trial info above- but on this list:
https://rusa.org/cgi-bin/awardlist_GF.pl?award=galaxy
Dan- titanium and carbon fiber road bikes.
Gary- titanium and aluminum tandems, titanium road bike and time trial bike
Mark- Specialized Roubaix
Vincent- don't know
Sharon- steel tandem, titanium and carbon fiber road bikes
Mark, Kelly, John, Ken- don't know
Dana- Gary's stoker
Geoff- don't know
Vickie- Bichetta recumbent, titanium road bike in the past, gravel bike
Pam- Titanium and carbon fiber road bikes
Hugh, Spencer- don't know


And to give you an idea how this works, one time I noticed Dan was on a different bike, and asked about it. Response "Oh, this is so-and-so's old bike that they left at my house. If I didn't ride it, it wouldn't ever get ridden."